Thursday, December 31, 2009

Open Enrollment to the Pechanga Tribe in January. Call for Application

The Pechanga Bylaws and Constitution provide for OPEN ENROLLMENT each January. If you believe you belong in the tribe, you should request an application.
The address from the Pechanga website for their Tribal Government is:


Pechanga Enrollment Committee
PO BOX 1477
Temecula, CA 92593

(951)770-6000
fax: (951) 695-1778
Don't take NO for an answer. It's IN their constitution.

156 comments:

Anonymous said...

Who do we speak to?

sanjuanflorist said...

it is my understanding that when you phone the tribal you speak with tribal council and some cranky woman will patch you through to the correct office.

stand your ground said...

The entrances to all the offices and the casino should have this sign:
ABANDON ALL HOPE YE WHO ENTER HERE

Allen L. Lee said...

The statement must be made now.
Every moratorium person should demand a review of an application previously submitted or re-submit a new one.
Every person who believes they have valid qualifications to be a Pechanga member should submit their application now.
It is a point of tribal law the must be addressed in this 31 day window.
Now is the time to demand that the Pechanga constitution be enforced or declared invalid.
They can refuse to enroll everyone that applies, but they must give grounds for the refusals other than a moratorium.
Keep us posted SanJuanFlorist

Anonymous said...

does the tribal council make decesion on who gets enrolled or the enrollment comittee?

Anonymous said...

The tribal council tells the enrollment committee what to do, even though they claim the don't

Allen L. Lee said...

I will be checking this site every day for the month of January to find out who has enrolled or asked to have their previously submitted application reviewed.
Please let me know who has enrolled tomorrow, January 4, 2010,
Thanks, Allen

Anonymous said...

Not to be negative but we all know that no one is getting enrolled just because it's January. January is just the month that the enrollment committee accepts applications. We can make some big stand and all show up and submit another application or protest but I’m not sure that will really help.

The way I see it is there are really only two ways people are going to get enrolled.
First, if the federal government forces enrollment, which I think we should continue to focus on contacting them.
Second, is if we can appeal to current tribal members so that they want to help get us enrolled. My concern is when we protest or fight back in certain ways we lose the support of some tribal members. We all know that most tribal members are probably not going to help or put their neck on the line if we are upsetting them. Maybe this year should be focused on rebuilding relationships with families that are members; more visits and one on one discussions with them; more discussions on opening or at least reviewing the moratorium. The tribe is ultimately controlled by the members so we must try to get some of them on our side; they can bring it up in meetings or put together petitions not us.

Allen L. Lee said...

I see a really big sovereignty conflict with the federal government "forcing" enrollment.
I don't even agree to a "forced" enrollment of the Cherokee Freedmen Descendants. Unified sovereigns must be by consensus.
The second aproach is ideal, as hostility usually breeds more hostility and irrational actions from all sides.
You might want to talk to the enrollment committee, relatives in the tribe, or the council, and convey to them in a diplomatic way what 'aamokat has been presenting about the moratorium being illegal. No one needs to be condemned or prosecuted for it, You are simply requesting that the illegal action be corrected.
An agreement to accept and review the applications without a determination until a later time would be great progress.
I'm sure enrolling as anonymous will absolutely not work.
It's 11:13 am, Monday, January 4, 2010. I'm still waiting for names. I will be checking every day.

Anonymous said...

THERE WILL BE NO ENROLLMENT OF ADULTS I JUST SPOKE WITH THE OFFICE,FURTHERMORE THEY STATE THERE WILL BE A MORATORIUM TILL 2014.

Anonymous said...

wtf

'aamokat said...

The moratorium people said to hold off on having a protest this month and that they would want to be out there early in February if Pechanga won't enroll any new adults this month.

I have been holding off on asking our people to decide on a date for this month but should we now go ahead now that it appears enrollment won't happen or should we just go ahead and wait until next month?

I think next month would give us more time to plan things.

Opinions?

Allen L. Lee said...

The "office" didn't say you couldn't submit an application?
Each applicant should have the response placed on their application that they can not be enrolled if they are an adult until 2014 because of a tribal moratorium.
All the moratorium minors still qualify to be enrolled in January according to this statement from the "office." It is important to get names, official statements, and signed documents when statement like this are made.
I suggest the moratorium parents and relatives in the tribe start working on those minor applications in January.
That's just my opinion
I don't want to force anyone into anything they don't want to do.
This is my way of challenging the situation. So tomorrow I will look for a name and every day in January.
Good Luck. Allen

Anonymous said...

The children of a moratorium person are also not eligible to get enrolled because there can be no breaks in a family line. So if the parent is not a member then child can't become a member until after the parent is enrolled.

I do agree with Mr. Lee's approach, everyone should verify that they have an application on file with the enrollment committee; there's no sense in just submitting another one if you already have one with them.
We need to come up with a new strategy this year, because some of what we are doing is probably not helping. We can’t just think that the tribal members will all of a sudden let us in out of the kindness of the hearts if we cause enough problems trying to hurt the casino’s profits. The reality is we can never make the casino lose money, it’s too big and the general public doesn’t care enough about us. You can’t compare our situation to civil rights violations of the past; no one sees this as if we are not receiving basic human rights like in the past. The tribal members have all the power and it’s all about their perceptions of our situation. If they were told and now believe that we don’t belong or were kicked out because lack of family ties, we need to show them evidence that we are Pechanga.
We need to make them see where the tribe was headed when the Mirandas and Hunters were still members. Per cap was rising every year, and now it’s taken a hard drop. Some can blame it on the economy but the tribe has had major spending in the last year, from the golf course, to the rec center, to the $50 million spent to get the compact past. The truth is the economy slowed the casinos growth but the decisions made by tribe’s elected officials are what caused the drop in the per cap.

'aamokat said...

Mr. Lee, the minors that would be allowed to be enrolled are only those children of current tribal members so minors of moratorium people are also still stuck in the moratorium and would not be allowed to be enrolled.

One of the allegations family members of both the Hunters and the Manuela Mirandas made prior to our disenrollment was that adults were enrolled before the 2000 election despite the morotarium on new adult members that was in place.

The tribal council was informed of this and they did nothing about it.

The newly elected members of the enrollment committee who made the allegations had gone to the committee's attorney from Indian legal services and they were reportedly told that Pechanga general council John Macarro, brother of chairman Mark Macarro, had told him not to advise them on the matter.

I have paperwork that was turned in to the tribal council during our appeal of our disenrollment that shows we asked that those enrollment committee members that our family member had made allegations against them of wrongdoing while on the committee not be allowed to rule on our disenrollment case.

So I do have proof that those allegations were made and that the enrollment committee members in question were allowed to rule on our case which I have been saying is a violation of Article V of the Band's constitution that forbids malice or predjudice of tribal members.

What do you think about us drafting a new appeal of our disenrollment and submitting it to the tribal council based on the Article V tribal constitution viloations?

It would actually be an unofficial appeal of our appeal that was turned down by the tribal council in August 2006.

But the majority of the ninth circuit court of appeals, in turning down my relatives' lawsuit, said that we had not exhausted all of our internal tribal options.

Regarding people being anonymous here, people don't post their names because of the possibility of them being relatliated against.

Especially those in the moratorium could be seen as talking negatively about the tribe thus risking their chance of enrollment.

Why would this be if all they did was post their names that they would like to be enrolled?

Because even coming to this site is frowned upon by the powers that be because make no mistake about it, tribal leaders feel their positions threatened by the very existance of this and other Web sites.

Before we the Hunters were disenrolled the tribal council had put the Web site Pechanga.info on the screen at a genreal membership meeting and we were told in effect not go to participate on that site in any way.

Pechanga.info is another anti-diserollment site run by M. Miranda family members.

Anonymous said...

Heres a funny one JOE LISKA is one of the children of FRED MAGEE?

CURRENT deceased member???????

Anonymous said...

Why would they ever enroll you??..it would just drop the per capita and you know they wont allow that...you should all flood the application office and take a news crew with you...how about Dateline or contact NBC...Collen Williams did a good piece for you before...quit sitting back and waiting for them to da the right thing...THEY WONT....GREED is the reason ..and Mr.Lee can sit there and tell you to wait it out, but what good has it done you so far?...with all the members that have been kicked out, you cant get some media attention?...try Larry Flint(with Hustler Casino)..he would love to write about it I bet!!!!

Allen L. Lee said...

I understand the justification for some of the anonymous's. I guess it's just some anonymous posters that bother me, especially ones that can't understand what is being said.
I never suggested for anyone to "wait it out" In fact my statement was quite the opposite. All you did was parrot what I said and pretend it was your idea.
Larry Flint! Yeah, that will do wonders for the dis-enrolled and moratorium peoples credibility.
Your still a weakling. Stay out of the lines of a real battle. All you're going to do is get people hurt that you claim your trying to help. You're reckless, selfish, and dangerous to the cause. If I didn't know any better I would swear you were a tribal plant.
To my ally 'aamokat,
My thinking is that sometimes you can't address the crime when it is being committed. You have to wait and catch the criminal at a later date for what they have done in the past or in the act as a repeat offender.
In this case the illegal act has already been committed years ago and we're back to witness it as a repeat offense this January. They've given everyone full warning that they were going to commit this act and the point of tribal law should be addressed while the illegal act is happening.
I suggest zero-ing in on the constitutional point of law
regarding enrollment. The tribe can either abide by the constituion or change it. This phantom moratorium will keep people from forming their own band indefinitely, and I think they have every right to do just that if they warrant tribal recognition from the U.S. as a legitimate, Band, Rancheria, or Tribelet of Pechanga people. More importantly the U.S. has to be questioned now about whether they are recognizing an illegal tribal government, both at Pechanga and Snoqualmie. If they are, than U.S. citizens can and should take actions to stop the U.S. from doing it.
Now might also be the time to prove and establish with concrete evidence that you have exhausted all tribal remedies.
"We might reconsider it in the next decade or the next millenium" does not count as a tribal remedy to be exhausted. If allies within the tribe don't speak up now, they probably never will.

Allen L. Lee said...

I just anted to elaborate a litle on this statement.
"...But the majority of the ninth circuit court of appeals, in turning down my relatives' lawsuit, said that we had not exhausted all of our internal tribal options. "
I think there are several documented statements from Tribal officials that "You should go on with your lives as Americans,"
or something similar to that effect. Those statement often are accompanied by a reason based on an official tribal as to why they think you should stop seeking re-patriation.
If those statements were not presented to the 9th circuit then perhaps they should be presented in the appeal.
If that doesn't demonstrate an exhaustion of Tribal remedies, I don't know what would.
This is for weakling anonymous
My statement on January 1, 2010 10:00 PM was:
"Allen L. Lee said...
The statement must be made now.Every moratorium person should demand a review of an application previously submitted or re-submit a new one.
Every person who believes they have valid qualifications to be a Pechanga member should submit their application now."
How weakling anonymous got:
"....and Mr.Lee can sit there and tell you to wait it out, "
out of it is beyond me.

Allen L. Lee said...

Good Morning,
It's January 6 2010.
I ask the question:
How many applications have been submitted?
How many have been reviewed?

Anonymous said...

Or Mr. Lee ..maybe you are the tribal plant...my point is that the kicked out members need to go big...not sit aound and wait for the "right" thing to happen..it never will...Larry Flint has a very sucessful casino in Gardena..why do you disparage him?What the Pechanga leaders have done to the tribe is much worse than the pornography that Mr. Flynt publishes...and he has won many court cases against the Government...my guess is that he has good lawyers and much money....something the kicked out members could use...they need a loud voice.The one they are using now isnt working for them...and I'm not a "Tribal plant"..I am an ex daily Pechanga gambler that used to spend and also win much money
at their Casino...but wont go back until the members get some satisfaction.

Allen L. Lee said...

You are what I thought you were Weakling Anonymous. You're definitely not a moratorium person or a dis-enrolled member.You have no stake in getting enrolled or re-instated back into the tribe, so you really don't care what happens to those that do. You don't know anything about the heritage or culture that is being destroyed by the Casino cultural genocide. In fact, by your own admission, you were one of the biggest perpetrators of said cultural genocide. The only loss you feel is the loss of your money. All you want to do is get back at the people you lost your money to.
You should concern yourself with getting enrolled, but not in a tribe. Perhaps enrolling in some sort of self-help program would be more beter for you than enrolling in a tribe.
The dis-enrolled taking assistance from a former smut-peddler like Larry Flint would give them the same credibilty as the Pechanga tribe taking assistence from a convicted child molester in order to dis-enroll its members.
A person with an addiction problem and the accompanying compromise of integrity wouldn't really see what was wrong with Larry Flint or child molester assistance.

Anonymous said...

So Mr. Lee you identify anybody that gambles as having a problem...for your information, I can afford to gamble and won much more at Pechanga than I ever lost...so whats your point?..who am I getting back at for stopping my visits to Pechanga?..the tribes is responsible completely for the "cultural genocide"..not people that visit a gambling establishment.Are you telling me how I should spend my own hard earned dollars?..I enjoy gaming and have done very well...wether it be Vegas or the tribal Casinos.I support the Pechanga dis-enrolled by NOT gambling at Pechanga.And as a citizen that voted for gambling in California I get to have an opinion just as you do. You seem much more apt to attack me than you do the tribe you supposedly have a problem with...save your venom for them.

Anonymous said...

ya I got enrolled today woo hoo,right on!!!!!!!and I am an adult!!!!!!

Allen L. Lee said...

Obviously, no one believed you Anonymous Weakling. Just goes to further prove your are a reckless antagonist and a liar. Making a mockery of people in the moratorium
shows your selfish attempt to make it all about you.
To continue.
It's January 8, 2010
What person with a provable Pechanga heritage has submitted an application for enrollment or asked to have their previously submitted applications reviewed?

Anonymous said...

what do you think we should do?

storm the enrollment office tie them to there chairs and tickle them with a feather?

Anonymous said...

I am tired of your doctor approach lets take a look at this situation.


puff puff

confused reader said...

Who is this Allen L Lee? And why are we all supposed to keep him happy?He seems VERY judgemantal if you dont agree with him.Is he a tribal mamber or a kicked out tribal member?The one poster said he quit going to Pechanga because of the treatment of you ex-tribal and Allen L Lee seeems to attack him, calling him a plant.I think when someone is actually trying to side with you ex-members, they shouldnt be attacked without proof.Is Mr. Lee your spokeperson?
I am related by marriage to an ex-member and that is the only reason I go to this site, but it seems that whoever this Allen L Lee is, kind of antagonizes anyone that might have an idea that is different than his.If he is your spokesperson than I stand corrected.

'aamokat said...

No, Mr. Lee is not our spokesperson, he is just one person who posts here and who has his own opinions and some I agree with and some I don't agree with.

Mr. Lee is related to another tribe but he can tell you about himself better than I can.

Anonymous said...

hi there
Well, I don't know if this is good news or screwed news. I phoned the tribal office today and for the first time in a year of calling I was told I could pick up and enrollment application. I asked them to mail it to me as I live in Washington and know I will have alot of homeowork that I might not have, but they said I had to pick it up. Does anyone know if that is really the case?? Or is more smoke and stall tactics in place. I am planning to fly down on the 17th and hopefully get an application and submit it personally. Any tips of information I will need, Death certificates, etc....?????? I would appreciate any help as all my family is deceased except my mother and we are doing this together. I would love to talk to anyone personally about our families and heritage.

Thanks for your help. Wish me luck.

sanjuanflorist

Allen L. Lee said...

It's good news to me, sanjuanflorist, and the first answer to my daily question, Thanks.
You've actually communicated with someone in the tribe and talking is where it starts.
Your the complete opposite of weakling anonymous and I'm proud of you, no matter what the outcome is for you.
I hope they will be able to recognize you as an asset to the tribe and enroll you.
It's January 10,2010
Who else has called, submitted an application or asked to have an application reviewed.

Allen L. Lee said...

Allen L. Lee speaks for Allen L. Lee.
When someone says "I am an ex daily Pechanga gambler
" the "daily" part puts up a red flag for addict. Addicts tend to lie, including the possible lying about not attending the Pechanga Casino.
When someone says, "you ex-members" or that the only reason they visit the site is because they are related by marriage to an ex-member, without citing one name of one victim of dis-enrollment or the moratorium, it makes me think they are in reality dis-connected from the issue at hand, and working on a personal agenda directed at Allen L. Lee. It tells me if they weren't an in-law, they wouldn't give a damn about the human and civil rights abuses committed against non-relatives.
Of course the sign in name is suspicious all by itself. A regular visitor called "Confused Reader," that I don't seem to recall?

confused reader said...

Addict has a very negative meaning...if a person golfs every day or walks every day , are they an addict?..if a person can afford daily gambling and it doesnt hurt anybody else, whats the problem??
And we have all heard the horror stories on this site about the "criminal" element involved with this tribe, so who would give their name?And Mr. Lee since the tribe says that you arent the spokesman or moderator of this respected site, who made you the judge?Most of us are here in support of the kicked out members and some of us have stopped gaming at Pechanga in support.You call us liars because we gamble?..And yes if it wasnt for this site most Americans wouldnt know about the civil rights abuse.At least some of us are doing something about it..and yes stopping gambling at those abusive Casinos is one way of doing it...but who needs this guyto make blanket statements about "Addicts" or the sincerity of a poster?..maybe he really is trying to scare away supporters of the O Pechanga site? well guess what?...its not going to work for me...I still gamble almost every day, it is my form of relaxation, I just go to Pala or Harrahs...so far I havent heard anything bad about them...and Mr. Lee...I can afford it.Quit being so judgemental....by the way....anybody can put a name on here, but it doesnt prove a thing.so in a sense, everybody is anonymous.

Allen L. Lee said...

If the "lying shoes" fit, then you should wear them as fashionably as you can. If they don't, you should have no problem walking the truth. But from my vantage point, I see you stumbling all over the place because you can't seem to take those "shoes" off.
Let's see where this started:
"Anonymous said...
.....and Mr.Lee can sit there and tell you to wait it out, but what good has it done you so far?..."
January 5, 2010 10:00 AM
That sounds like a judgemental statement to me? Especialy considereing I was talking to someone else.
A classic behavior of a weak minded addict is to instigate a problem and then blame the problem rather than themselves.
Blogs usually don't have spokespersons, they have moderators, if the moderator doesn't like what you or I say they can delete us at will.
It's January 11, 2010
Who other than sanjuanflorist has approached the enrollment office and submitted an application or asked to have an application reviewed?
Has anyone mentioned the constitutionality of the moratorium to a tribal member?

Anonymous said...

You sound like some of the criminal tribe members that stop by Mr. Lee with all of your name calling.

'aamokat said...

I am not sure what the conflict between "Confused Reader" and Allen Lee is as I believe both support the rights of those who have been wronged by the Pechanga tribe.

So why all of the bad feelings back and forth?

We can disagree about certain topics from time to time but overall we need unity and all of this negative talk does not help our cause at all.

I apprecitate that both of these people visit this blog and provide their input.

Allen L. Lee said...

It was fun 'aamokat, especially the part where the author says:
"And Mr. Lee since the tribe says that you arent the spokesman or moderator of this respected site."
The tribe would never say this is a respected site, but I'll give it a rest.
Sounds too much like Casino P.R. than genuine concern for people who have had their rights violated.

Anonymous said...

from sanjuanflorist

I would appreciate some answers since I will be facing the EC next week.

1. Are we allowed to know what ancestors of ours is enrolled if any?
2. Is there a list for us to look at?
3. Who has that list?
4. Is anyone here related to Miquella Guavish (Michella)??
5. Who lives on or near the reservation and are they a Guavish?
6. I am assuming that the 4 Guavish Ancestors listed on the allotments are related, am I correct?

I don't want to go in to the EC completely inept. Can anyone help??

Thanks

Anonymous said...

Mr. Lee...I think the writer was quoting aamokat when he or she made that comment...and they are calling ex-members tribal because they really are...not tribal as in Pechanga.And you do seem awful hostile just because they think differently than you.
It was aamokat who informed the writer that you werent the spokesperson.And they probably meant that they "respected" the site..not the Pechanga tribal leaders....go back and read it again...thank you

Anonymous said...

san juan there is a freeze on enrollment til 2014 ,are you related to anyone on the original list of people kicked off the farm land not just an alottee of land?

Anonymous said...

1873,heres list ,john magee,jesse teel,geronomo medran,juan garcia,louis orden,jose champkins,vecinto ladrone, juan paubin,rocencio janjac, elevano, coparupit,anselmo nesicat,bital atasia,ciatano checol, anturaceo cuilish,nicholas hamber,juan janjac,heban nosich,leono janjac jose jaguez,bernardino hambre,doreto hambre,leno caparupit,fernando sevall,josesantuz capurepez,jose nasheo janjac,jesus janjac,santiiago andrea,jose sido merdedore,felipe ajac,jose anto,sal ajal,andreas doca,augustin guajas,pasicico flaco,jose seriano,lorenzo copurapez,gregorio naclar,balladina cuivas,catulina atache,gariel tasobol,joseffa tasobol,rocia tosobol,guermo lopez,samwell panben,pablo nosea,gabreal verdego,azulea cuyote,andres tortuga,achano tortuga,ysidio tosobol,locencio nesicat, thats it.

Im sorry but i think the guavish family was disenrolled.

Allen L. Lee said...

A principle must be able to stand on it's own, without regard to personalities and egos.
I wouldn't worry too much about a spokesperson or their personality.
They can be the most disliked person in society, but if their principles are correct, the principle will prevail.
They could be the most liked person as well, but if they embrace a flawed principle, the principle will fail.
The failsafe for failure is to admit that you are wrong, and I'm wrong on a daily basis. If I can't self identify my errors,I rely on my friends and allies to help identify those errors before my enemies get wind of them and use them to destroy me.
I read it again, and there are several indicators in the text that tell me "shoes" still fit. Pretty low to try and draw 'aamokat's name into the "lie soup." A transparent attempt to try and create dissention between me an 'aamokat.
I promised 'aamokat I would give it a rest and thank you.

'aamokat said...

That 1873 list posted here, almost entirely male, was really only a partial list of the people evicted from the old Temecula village.

The Indian agent at that time said that there were about 300 Indians evicted so a lot of them, most of the woman, were not on this list.

So this list, about 52 people, is incomplete

I think that the allotments, the census records, and this list and other lists should be what is needed to show who are original people of the tribe.

So rather than excluding people who rightfully have a claim on tribal membership we should be inclusive and not be like the tribe in trying to keep people out.

'aamokat said...

SanJuanFlorist, the following last names are from the Guavish line according to the 1979 roll, the first list after the written application was instituted during open enrollment, which was supposed to be every January but only lasted until 1996:

1. Fletcher

2. Ibanez

3. Duncan

4. Gard

5. Arellano

6. Orozco

7. Markstrom

8. Burbee

Unfortunately some of the very people who led the charge against the disernolled and the moratorium people are from this family line and the fact remains you are related to people such as Ed Burbee, James Fletcher, Linda Markstrom and the infamous Vincent Ibanez.

But you are also related to Phillip Ibanez and some others who were helpful to us and who stood up for us during our disenrollment despite the opinion of some of their family members.

Sorry, but I don't think most of them would be much help in getting you enrolled but I hope for your sake I am wrong about this.

Anonymous who said the Guavish line have been disenrolled is either lying or is misinformed.

'aamokat said...

I don't want to imply that the person who said the Guavish line was disenrolled is lying as after reading my last post I saw it was too strong of a response and that incorrect or misinformed is the more accurate response on my part.

So I apologize if that person was, as I suspect, well meaning in his or her post.

Also, he or she may not be aware of the Indian agent's report that said there were about 300 Indians evicted from the old Temecula village not just the 52 names on the list posted.

I don't want to contribute to any divisions here of people who should be on the same side in pursuing justice.

Anonymous said...

the list were men that were head of the household,,john magee was irish but married to a pechanga indian woman (example)

Anonymous said...

thank you so much for your answers. Wow I'm related to the greedy punks who take from their own kind. Thats huge. I apologize for them. It saddens me greatly. The only thing that I know for sure is that my grandmother, Florence, died and so our name is not on that list. I do know sometime in the 50's she sat in on a pow wow and said everyone was quiet and just stared at her. Myiquella Guavish must have just moved back to the reservation about the time of the scuffle. I know she was living there in 1852, gone in 54 had my great grandmother up in warners in 60 and back to her tribe about 65 or so. I am not giving up trying to teach my children where they come from and bring myself closer to where it all began.

sanjuanflorist

'aamokat said...

SanJuanFlorist, you have nothing to apologize about you as you did nothing to anyone and not all of your family line did us wrong and some went against their family members in support of us.

In fact two of your relatives stood up for what is right Phillip I. and a gentleman named Rick, whose last name escapes me at the moment. Rick attended the funeral of some Hunter family members who have passed away since our disenrollment.

That some of your family members stood by us means a lot to us and we have not forgotten what they have done.

No worries even though it turns out you are related to Mr. Potato Head (E. Burbee), Ha!Ha!

Seriously, please don't be disturbed about being related to some of these people as it can help to show you have a legitimate blood claim on tribal membership so use that to your advantage.

Anonymous said...

Cute 'aamokat

I hope you are right about my blood lines and hopefully the help. I WILL be fighting for the rights for all of us. I am even trying to convince my daughter that she aught to go to college to fight for the rights within tribes and advocate for those that need it.

Do you live near the reservation? I can't thank you enough for your information, now I have to try and connect the dots.

sanjuanflorist

Anonymous said...

o.k. 'aamokat

How is it possible for me to be related to these people. Did that nasty Vincent come from a brother or sister of Miquella? The story of my life, one jerky man after another. haha My god, you could have been nice and said my relatives were sweet old story tellers living on the reservation waiting to meet living relatives of their favorite grandmother or something. But no, I get the child molesters and BIA schmuck and god knows what else. Well, the good thing is is that the 1890 census has Paulina and my grandmother living together so my "relatives" down there know that as well.

Heres a question, I think you said your family still own the land that Paulina received, how is it that it is still undeveloped?? Water, etc...and how can they keep you from it?

or am I mistaken?

'aamokat said...

sanjuanflorist, yes I do live in the community within a 15 minute drive from the reservation but I have not been on the Rez in quite some time.

Sometimes my relatives who live there have asked me when am I going to come by and see them but I haven't made it over there.

I am not avoiding going there per say but I do remember getting a lump in my throat every time I have went there after our disenrollment and even when we were under investigation for disenrollment prior to the decision kicking us out of the tribe.

As far as the last names of Guavish descendants, I just went down my copy of the 1979 enrollment roll and wrote down the names who had the name Guavish with their names.

I hope the information helps.

'aamokat said...

Sanjuanflorist, we are not kept from our land as my mother owns part of Paulina's allotment and we have many relatives who live there.

Our land is mainly residential and we have a street called Hunter Lane that our family members live on.

We are just not members of our tribe anymore but so far we have not been kept from the land and hopefully at least that won't change.

As far as how you are connected to the other Guavish family members, that I don't knows as I just copied the last names of people who were descended from that name.

If you post who your immediate family members are again, then maybe I can go to the list and see if some of them are closer relatives then just being from the Guavish of the 1800's.

By the way, my handle 'aamokat means Hunter in the Luiseno language.

Anonymous said...

I like your name, 'aamokat. Is the Luiseno language difficult? There is not much information on it. I myself have never been to the reservation, although my great grandmother, Matilda and her son Steve are buried at Pechanga. My mom moved us here when we were teenagers.

My family names are Miquella Guavish who lived with her grandfather in 1850ish then married a John Place and had a child Matilda. There may have been another child, William, and an adopted child, John Kolb. Matilda was married off at 15 to a Turner Helm, a real schmoo, and they had 4 kids. Steve, Cleve, John and Florence Helm. The Helm brothers are quite notorious for frolicking and shooting. I think they also killed a few and started a fire which killed a set of twins Matilda was carrying.

It seems to me that I come from quite a bunch of riff raff and its no wonder Florence never talked much about her days except she HATED living in the dirt. Which is why the 10 acres she received from her mother she sold to Earl Stanley Gardner and bought an apartment in N. Hollywood. We don't know who received the other 10 acres though as we were told there was a total of 20 given out.

Thanks again for listening to my story. It is refreshing to talk to someone who at least has an idea of my indian heritage.

sanjuanflorist

Allen L. Lee said...

Wow, sanjuanflorist,
That's some serious Pechanga and Temecula history, how that land changed hands.
You should probabaly enjoy the So. Cal weather this time of year. quite a change from the Northwest.
Again, wishing you success.
Allen.

'aamokat said...

Sanjuanflorist, I don't see any current Guavish family members from your line as the common name they have is Contreras on the 1979 enrollment list.

I seem to remember seeing the name Helm on some of the Pechanga census records for the 1890's but I can't look that up right now as my records are on my old computer and the hard copy censuses I have are pretty faint and hard to read.

You can get those though from the Ancestry.com Web site if you have a subscription to the service.

Interesting that one of your ancestors was named Matilda as one of Paulina Hunter's daughters, my great grandmother, was also named Matilda.

Yes the Luiseno language is pretty hard as it has a lot of verb changes, adding prefixes and subfixes to root words and it was only written down as a written language since about the 1970s.

I remember hearing an expert on local Indian dialects saying Luiseno was as complex as Latin.

Pretty good for a bunch of so called uneducated "savages," at least as thought of by some of the dominant European snobs who think only modern societies could have complex cultures.

Anonymous said...

Woo Hoo it isa windy and rainy and gross here and I can't wait for some sunshine.

Isn't being a savage cool. Fat European men are disgusting. John Place apparently was so fat they had to build an extra large casket for him and it took quite a bunch of men to carry him up the hill behind Warners to bury him. He was European.

there are Helms listed, but I think those were my g-g- grandfathers brothers or something.

Did they call your Matilda, MaryAnn as well?

After Matildas husband died she married a John Sanders who apparently loved the indian Fiestas? haha They lived on the reservation property til the well went dry or something.

Thanks for looking for me. What I need is a really old indian story teller who remembers ALL, a great drink and a Notebook. HAHA

Atleast I have a few photos of Matilda. Not too cute though. :)

sanjuanflorist

'aamokat said...

No, my ancestor Matilda Hunter was not called Mary Ann but Paulina had another daughter named Mary Ann Hunter.

So maybe we have some of sort of connection between our families?

Anonymous said...

back to topic anyone get enrolled?

Anonymous said...

To sanjuanflorist
I can give you a little info on your family, as we are related way back. Michelle Guavish was born 1834 and died 9/4/1898 was married to John Place; they had a daughter Matilda Guavish who was married to John Sanders. Michelle Guavish is the aunt of Christina Guavish who is the ancestor of the Fletcher, Ibanez, Duncan, Gard, Arellano, Orozco, Markstrom, Burbee lines. Michelle is also the sister of Santiago Guavish who in the ancestor of the Garbani line.

Anonymous said...

the splinter group?

Anonymous said...

anyone no what family ken perez is from?

'aamokat said...

Ken Perez is related to Bobbi Lamere and John Palinkas which would make him from the Ayal family line.

I remember John telling me that Ken was his cousin.

Ken is not a bad man and in fact he told me after we were disenrolled that things will be made right.

I believe him to be a good man and he could be someone who can help us behind the scenes so we shouldn't lump him in with Macarro, etc.

Anonymous said...

If Perez is ayal, he is a thief representing himself as Pechanga. I dare his to present his CIBD.

He may have been and good man in the past; he is NOT a good man at the present. He is a co-conspirator.

Anonymous said...

dare him

Anonymous said...

from Sanjuanflorist

Thank you so much for your line information. I just received the patent information and figured she died around 1898.

Well, I just got back from Pechanga. What an experience. I was unfortunately unable to fill out my paper work because of all the originals they want. I was quite intimidated and disgusted by what I saw. The security system is tough, the Cultural dept. is a bunch of BS, the cemetary is a mess and the reputation of the tribe is in shambles. I apologize if I seem harsh but really, this is not what I expected and I was very sad.

When I went to the Cultural Dept, they told me it was for members only, a man's club?. Disgusting, It is for history and learning and everyone who wants to know should be invited.
Second, While at the cemetary, The trash and the sorry shape of the grounds was shameful. I tried to ask where Matilda was buried and NOONE would tell me, I'm not enrolled. As if that should stop me from placing a proper headstone for her. I found my Uncle Steve Helm and was pleased. Does anyone know where Matilda's final resting place is???
Thirdly, I finally convinced the guard to allow me access to the Government center and politely waited until the everyday woman left the front desk and asked the young lady for the application and she was very happy to give me one. YEA, I was jumping with joy since the day before they said only children, yet again. I am diligently working on filling it out. What mission has the records??

For all the Hunters, while reading the rules of enrollment, I do not see how you were removed from the tribe. You fit!!!! I think something is up. The town of Temecula thinks of the Pechanga as a very sneaky lot. I asked around. Even the librarians. They are up to something, big and not good. They have very little if no respect.
THere needs to be some new blood, life and history needs to be freely given,
If the reservation where everyone lives is off the dirt road after the cemetary, which I was afraid to travel down, then why are they not using their monthly paycheck to make a lovely homestead??

I AM NOT trying to be judgmental, so forgive me if I sound so, I am just saddened by the loss of a great group of hard working and intelligent people.

When the enrolled started earning monies, were the people trained on how to manage it?? I think it was an awful lot of money very quickly given and people don't know how to handle it. I wonder if I could??

I want to help. I want to be apart of something that can make a difference if the right people are in charge. Not everyone is fit to lead, it requires a humble heart and a sturdy backbone. I myself make a terrible boss. Perfectionist and bossy. :)

To Aamokat', what was the exact reason for your removal?? I just can't see how it was possible for them to do that to you and your family. It states that if you can prove you were excepted as an pechanga in the 1800's, then you were and are forever. Even the adopted.
How can I help you???? I would love to have met your family.

sanjuanflorist

Anonymous said...

Do you know Michella's parents names or grandfather? I wondered why she lived with her grandfather instead of her parents.

thank you

sanjuanflorist

Allen L. Lee said...

Congratulations, sanjuanflorist,

You must be a person of great courage to do what you did. So someone gave you an application to fill out. That was a progressive step. I'm curious if they'll allow you to submit your application whenever it can be completed, or will you have to wait until next January?
Also, did you get a taste of any of the rain down there? Southern Cal needs to develop seasonal wetlands, being how scarce water is for the population and nature.
Good job sanjuanflorist.
It's January 22, 2010
Anyone else?

just do it said...

san juan florist your post jan.15

letting you blab away just aint right...
I want to add to your list of european disgusting fat men...
Yes they can be disgusting..

BUT HERE IS A NEWS FLASH...

I have seen the same disgusting fat men of different colors,
fat and disgusting Indian men and women right there at Pechanga, fat and disgusting Indian men and women at Soboba, fat and disgusting men of other colors, black, mexican, chinese etc. in so many places, take a look around you,
makes me wonder how they got so fat...It must be the white man's fault... it certainly can't be their own disgusting lack of control...

Anonymous said...

pigs

Anonymous said...

its mcdonalds fault and that taco shop on the rez wanna be taco shop,,go to the gym you fat indian pigs and drunks.

and take your casino and shove it up your a^^.


white pride

Anonymous said...

San Juan, u can go to ancestry.com.

You can pay a fee of approx 20$ for one month. They renew automatically, so b sure to cancel if you do not care to continue.

go to Indian Census Schedule; type in your ancestors' names and click! Info will pour forth :)

Anonymous said...

Yes, I was blabbing and appologize for it. I was just so shocked about the conditions, the security, the secretiveness and the attitudes. It made me want to go dig up my uncle and move him someplace, any place.

The rain was abundant and I am from rain. Washed out road to Warners and streets flooded and then you have 55 mph speeds in subdivisions. My Word.

We are hopefully getting the application sent in next week. Keep you posted.

Thanks for the information.

I was not meaning to speak ill of anyone, I just believe that we all keep learning and if something isn't, we change it. I do not understand the Pechanga way of thinking, but I do know that they are not a loved tribe. I went into the casino and it really was fairly empty. While eating there, the waitress told us that she worked with a woman who was disenrolled and left her job, friends, etc and how sad she was for her and her family. People in the library stated how sad it was that they would not share information.

Anyone else enrolling????

sanjuanflorist

Anonymous said...

About the European fat men, I was just commenting on someone else. I was agreeing and stating that they are mainly a pain and was joking and sharing a story about my own G G grandfather. I was not belittling anyone because somewhere most of us have European fat men in our families.

sanjuanflorist

'aamokat said...

What is with all of this hostilty towards heavy people?

Three years ago I lost 100 pounds but unfortunately I gained about 60pounds of it back last year and since one of my grandparents was English and another one, on the other side of my family, was French and Spanish (from Spain), I guess that makes me both a fat European as well as being a fat Indian so to some here I have no excuse for living let alone commenting on any of the topics on this blog.

My point is, look at the log in your own eye before you commenting on the speck in another's eye (from a very famous book).

Everyone, no matter who they are, has issues in their life they can improve on and although I don't think sanjuanflorist meant any harm with his or her joke, some here have taken it further and they have been very vicious with their comments.

So do some of you here think I should not comment here anymore just because I gained a bunch of weight last year?

If so, I will go away and not come back.

PS, to some of you mean people, you are probably skinny smokers and at least I don't stink like you do if you are!

To the others, sanjuanflorist included, bare with me for venting a little bit.

Anonymous said...

do you think there will be any violence or anyone killed if they attempt to disenroll the masiels and basquez famlies?


big brother

White Buffalo said...

Hey everyone I used to be very very thin in fact I looked bad, Now that I am older I gained a lot of weight so much that when I put on the Santa suit last month I had to have the jacket let out. Who would of thought that even Santa needs to lose about 90 lbs. I think what I want to say I see disgusting people of every race and size, but it is the things that they do in their lives that give them that look. I know I’m fat and opinionated but I know my goals and methods’ do not use people as a means to my end. I was not insulted by the previous comments’ yet for some if the shoe fits

Anonymous said...

Well, I am unsure what to say. Sometimes I think everyone is so sad and helpless by what is happening around them we make a joke and I'll give it to you, A BAD JOKE. I was only trying to make you laugh about my great grandfather not hurt anyones feelings. I am sorry.

I'm sorry 'aamokat,

Sanjuanflorist

'aamokat said...

Apology accepted sanjuanflorist but my comments were not directed at you but towards some of the others who piled on to your comments and like I said, a lot of people have things they can improve on in their lives be in weight issues, bad habits such as smoking, which is also unhealthy just like being overweight, or other problems, but that no one is better or worse than anyone else.

As far as some fat people being a pain, a lot of the people who caused a lot of pain to those of us disenrolled or stuck in the moratorium are thin people such as Ed Burbee, Raymond Basquez Sr, Irene Scerce and James Flecther, and others.

But of course Yoli McCarter, who is heavy, also was a major pain to us so I guess we can say that mistreating fellow tribal members or other people with legitimate credentials for tribal membership is not a respecter of size.

White Buffalo said...

I do not want to hurt feelings on this blog, I did that unintentionally once because I was having a bad day my post on the issue of fat was not meant to hurt only to say that mean people who would hurt others for personal gain come in every shape color and size. Sorry if I hurt your feelers except I meant what I said to your “Oh Grand Potato” you still suck

Anonymous said...

big brother mark macarro won,t let those people be disenrolled because he needs there votes.


concerned pechanga people

Anonymous said...

glad all is settled. No more bad jokes. I almost have all my sources of information to go with my application. I hope I can send copies and land records, census, photos, birth certificates except for those of Michella and Matilda cause there aren't any.
Could Felcustio Guavish be Michella's father?? He was 101 on the last census I could find. We live forever it seems.
Do I need to send a photo of myself?? and my DNA???

Does anyone know who has the Pechanga cemetary records of where the People are buried??

sanjuanflorist

Anonymous said...

Hey sanjuanflorist, how did you get an application when they are not excepting apps. from anyone? also its real hard to get on the rez these days, what strings did you pull? are expecting to be enrolled soon? youd be the first! Let us in on your secret! wish i could take drive on the rez,even though you trashed it, not smart if you want to be enrolled!

Allen L. Lee said...

I think objectively that this thread was prone to bring some collective hostility.
This thread was a challenge to take action, and the prolonged nature of this problem has lead many to believe that we are fighting against the odds. With the accompanying anxiety and dispair that many feel, it would seem logical that some would surface as hostility , both mis-directed and directed.
I think the challenge was good, and if we can make it through this phase of internal hostility, we will all be stronger and more able to address the problem with a more rational resolve.
So I will continue my role in the challenge until the end of January.
It's January 24, 2010,
Who other than sanjuanflorist has submitted an application or asked the enrollment office to review a previously submitted application.
Even with a moratorium, they can tell you whether you will or won't qualify as a tribal member once the moratorium is lifted.

Anonymous said...

Felcustio Guavish is Michella's and Santiago Guavish's father and Christina Guavish’s grandfather.

Additionally, the rez looks like it does because there are about 300 people that live on the rez and maybe half of them are enrolled, so the other half are poor or at least not rich. Plus, the money has only come recently so many members never lived on the rez and some that did have moved into nicer subdivisions. Part of the issue is that the tribe and people with money don't control all of the rez so they don’t want to put too much money into it; who wants to build a million dollar house that you can sell except to other members next to a trailer. It will take time to clean it up, but they will eventually get there.

Anonymous said...

Thank you. I was thinking the Felcustio was the grandfather but can not find the grandmother. Any Ideas??

Second, I was not exactly trashing the Rez. I was mainly of the thought that most of the people lived on the rez. I just read though that some maintain the rez address for tax purposes but really live off site. Don't know if that is true or not. I just thought with all the money, that they could make it a beutiful place and look out for eachother. If I ever get enrolled, I WILL take on beautification and donate my time and love to uniting the tribe. I know I sound naive and whatever, but I want to bring back the way it was. Look at the census reports and for those of you who can tell stories from one family to another you can see that they lived among and WITH eachother.
Here is a question for all who dare answer.
When the idea of disenrolling and not enrolling first came to surface, what did you really think of it? Did you think not to let knew people like me in or did you think I just wanted your money??
For the record I would sign over my money for the sake of making Pechanga a place to live, learn and respect.

Truthfully, What was the feeling behind it all in the beginning?????

sanjuanflorist

Anonymous said...

I have no idea about Felcustio's wife; he was born in the 1700s so anything back that far is a bit tough. The only reason I know about him is because he lived such a long life. You really don't need to trace back any further than say Michella, because the other families are in and they are all related.
As for the rez, cleaning it up sounds simple but it would be far more difficult as I mentioned above, it would be a big fight to get people without money to clean up their property just so a tribal member didn't have to live near a place that looked poor; and the tribe could pay to clean it up but how long would it stay nice if the owned didn’t have money to maintain it.
Lastly, to my understanding when the moratorium started I think most were in favor of it. Think about it, those that helped create and build the casino and rez, didn’t think that someone who didn't want to be Indian before should get to benefit from their hard work. The money argument goes both ways, members say you didn’t want to be a part of this when it was nothing, so all you want is money. Non-members say you won’t let me in because you don’t want to share the money with me.

Anonymous said...

How the hell did you greedy pigs know who did or did not want to be Indian!
You are getting what you deserve.
Enrollment does not depend on your selfish motives. You are a legitimate descendant or you are not.

Now the are nots are enrolled and the are are not; bunch of greedy idiots.

Enrollment is January of every yr. It is one of the criteria the tribe must follow. Another criteria that must be followed is a constitution.

You greedy ignoramuses just let greed overcome reason.

Congratulations.

Anonymous said...

what does it matter who is and who is not?they don,t follow their constitution,the united states government does not care it could be 200 people from iran that took over the tribe!

'aamokat said...

It is not just the poor non tribal members who don't want Rez improvements.

When we the Hunters were still in the tribe a Hunter family elder suggested at a meeting that the all the main roads, even those in the residential areas, be paved but he was shouted down by the goons in the back of the room who yelled things like, "shut and sit down old man."

Others, more politely, expressed the opinion to keep things as they are and the matter was dropped.

Never mind that the Hunter elder suffers from asthma and the dust that is kicked up when the wind comes up, which happens quite often, bothers him.

White Buffalo, while I am not harping on the weight issue, here is one more obversation and that is that the Grand Potato is skinny and he has been a thorn in a lot of people's sides.

Also, the "Walking Zombie" (hey wake that guy up!), J. Flecther, is also thin.

But hey, enough about that topic.

Sanjuanflorist, I am still asking myself the question as to the reasoning behind our disenrollments when we have proof that we belong but in another post I will briefly state some of the bogus claims that a small majority on the enrollment committee and in the tribal council used to justify kicking us out of the tribe.

Anonymous said...

Here is a thought. I understand how letting new people into a "group" can be terrifying. There is always the fear that they want something from you or why would they want to be a part of it all. I have learned by living in a very close community that everyone wants to live in harmony with eachother. Yes, making your home takes work, a little money, and alot of neighbors. If it can work here with 4000 people, it can work there. Its just about getting people excited.

My aunt whom just died in the last few years spent years trying to figure out everything on where we belong. She died at 100. My great grandmother whom I loved dearly did not talk much about her childhood on or near the rez. I don't know why or even why she did not speak much of her brothers. Although while visiting the rez one of her brothers is buried there. That was in 1948. As far as I am concerned that was not too long ago. Her children were also pretty well kept in the dark. I don't believe it was on purpose noone from my family is enrolled, I think it was something that just happened.
I will tell you though, I wrote the BIA when I last spoke to my aunt and she told me to get my number in 1989. Funny thing, I just received notice from them of my number back in July or August, this year!!!. It got lost in their system and I got too busy with my life to follow through.
What I am talking about is everyone who is enrolled needs to take an active part in their home and that of their ancestors. I would be willing to donate my time and energy.

What Pechanga needs is hope and how that is to be is beyond me at the moment, but I want to figure it out and I would be willing. That is the first step.

I do understand everyones anger and sadness, especially the frustration. There has to be something we can all do, whether you are enrolled or not.

KEEP FIGHTING AND BELIEVING. Sometimes that all we have.

Anonymous said...

saddestdescedant is asking a question on pechanga .info is the guavish clan from the temecula indian clan?

Anonymous said...

from my side of the Guavish clan, My papers state Temecula/Pechanga.

Allen L. Lee said...

An interesting discussion about affluence and wealth. I think that often wealth and affluence is subjective, based on how a specific culture values things and ideas. Often the western view of affluence and poverty doesn't take into consideration what is valuable to indigenous people.
I wonder what some of the elders would use to determine an affluent tribe other than western money?

Anonymous said...

Sanjuanflorist, you darn well money has something to do with it! If you really want to beautfy the rez just donate your time and help clean the place up, im sure they would like that!enrolled or not why bother filling out an application.

Anonymous said...

The Guavish clans are most certainly from Pechanga, they are on many of the census records and other documents and well as have land on the rez.

My comments above regarding both sides, members and non-members saying the other side just wants money, is what it is and of course there are always exceptions, which is why I have said it in the past and I will continue to say it, the only way any of us will get in is if we convince members to want to let us in through building relationship. They have all the power.

Lastly, my comments on the status of the rez: First, it's a complicated issue you have a lot of different types of people. All the way from some with money who could care less to some without who care a lot. Either way there is no unity on the rez, and since only a small group of members live on the rez, you'll have a hard time getting the general membership to support something that doesn't directly benefit them. If you could clean it up once and that was it you could probably get support but it would be a big project to keep it clean all the time. Finally, a word of advice for Sanjuanflorist, don't go to the rez and start cleaning, people, members or non-members will not like you walking on their property and the rez is a lot tougher place than a standard subdivision.

Anonymous said...

Yes, I do know that the rez, cultural dept., and the government offices don't want you on, near or around the place.

Second, the guard on duty said it would be easier if I was enrolled.

Thirdly, I am not stupid. Just because I would like to HELP and CONTRIBUTE my time and energy to making people feel good about who they are is not a crime. I own a business whose sole purpose in life is revolved around feelings. The good, the bad and the ugly.

I was just stating that the state of affairs between Pechanga and people, on and off the rez, is shaky at best. That is why I was asking why and how this all started in the first place.

It is sad to me that people are getting kicked out and refused. I get the complications of "cleaning" up the rez. Mostly I was stating that I believed that if you are enrolled you had to give back. Community service so to speak to your ancestors. I just honestly believed that your time doesn't stop at enrollement.

So whoever is angry "anonymous" fine and take your anger and do something about it.

Anonymous said...

lets clear this up someone said the basquez and masiels were not temecula indians and they have proof?

now all those names listed above gauvish clan basquez is one of the names? my simple question i don,t care about a 1940 rolls cenus or what ever are the connected to the list of original names or are they part of that adopted splinter group?

answer please

Anonymous said...

The masiel/basquez line is connected through the Garcia line, not the Guavish lines. If you like you can read more about the masiel/basquez line from the 12/22/09 article posted on here.

As for this comment from above "So whoever is angry "anonymous" fine and take your anger and do something about it."; if this was directed toward me, nothing I said was out of anger, I was simply trying to explain my understanding of the politics of the rez, specifically involving cleaning it up. The reality is there are a lot of changes that need to happen, it will just take time, and there have been changes that have made things better in the last few years. It is good that there are people out there that would like to see the tribe better itself because I feel the same way.

'aamokat said...

The Masiel/Basquez family claim they are connected to the Garcia line but their claim is suspect as shown by the questions that have not been answered 1.By them being cleared from disenrollment by less than a legal quorum of the enrollment committee in 2003 2. by them not showing concrete proof that they are in fact direct descendants of Josefa Garcia. 3. Their ancestor, supposedly Josefa's daughter, Francisca Leyvas, reportedly having several 1928 applications for enrollment as a California Indian and who submitted three applications for a 1950's per capita with conflicting information.

And these were the people who sat in judgement of the Hunters and M. Mirandas and who were the deciding votes in their disenrollments?

Also folks, this family were some of the strongest supporters of the moratorium and all of its extensions.

As far as the Guavish line, from what I have seen by them being in the censuses from the 1800s and in other records I believe that they are in fact original people

Anonymous said...

Does anyone really think anyone will actualy be enrolled? ever?, i dont think so. this moratorium will never end as for the disenrolled they want you to go away. every time you call they say another four year with no explanation, they just dont care,a cousin of mine said years ago we will never be enrolled, sad isnt it? what greed will do to a person

Anonymous said...

No, my comment about doing something about your anger went to the person who stated that I should not bother enrolling. Everyone knows, that in order to work with the tribe one must be enrolled.

Speaking of enrolling, who has mailed in applications??? I sent mine in and have not heard. Shocking:)

What would it take to let loose of the moratorium and to reinstate kicked out members???

For the members in moratorium, do you resubmit your application every year?? Death by paperwork.

The only part of the application I have to say needs to be revamped would be "an orignal birth certificate mailed from the county courthouse" irritating, expensive and really, really time consuming.

How many members are there left in the tribe? How many have been kicked to the curb??

Remember its not too late to mail in those applications. Am I the only one??

sanjuanflorist

Anonymous said...

They have my application of file from a few years ago, so I personally don't feel it's a good idea to keep sending in an application every year, I'm pretty sure some people do though. My thought is if they only receive a small number of new applications each January then tribal members will start wondering what they are paying them for. Also, don't expect to hear anything from the enrollment committee I'm not sure that it is really part of their process to notify you that they received your application.

In total there might be around 300 people that got disenrolled. There were actually 3 families disenrolled that I am aware of. The first was part of the Manuela Miranda family, which happened before the casino. The enrollment committee rejected the family's connection to Manuela Miranda. Then the rest of the Manuela Miranda family was disenrolled. And then most recently the Hunter family was disenrolled.

Finally, your most important question: what will it take for all of us to get enrolled? One of two things must happen, actions by the federal government or tribal members wanting us enrolled. So I think our best action is to try to get the tribal members to want us in. I am for all of us contact all tribal members we know and pushing to get some people enrolled. The thing is even if we can help some people get in it will better our chances to get all of us in. Enrolled might come in waves, maybe it’s one of the families that were disenrolled or some of the people in the moratorium that get in first but no matter what if people that have been stuck outside get enrolled it will help us all in the long run.

Allen L. Lee said...

It goes to show not all the anonymous's are the same person.
I actually like the approach that anonymous of "January 27, 2010 6:51 AM" makes and generally agree.
If you are the same person that made the statement about "Does anyone really think anyone will actualy be enrolled? ever?, i dont think so." I would like to discuss it some, if you are not, I apologize.
I think that some members of the tribe have sent signals that they no longer want open enrollment. The intent to change the base rolls is one and enrollment of minors only of registered members is the other.
One thing that sanjuanflorist may have demonstrated is that not everyone wants to completely internalize the tribe for the immediate future. There may be some who still want to consider non-enrolled kins-persons as tribal members.
The important thing is that the tribe should make a determination one way or the other. They can end open enrollment and look at applications on a case by case basis, but as it stands now, the constitution say, "Open Enrollment"
As with the Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma constition, once the constitution was amended to remove the Freedmen Descendants, the Freedmen Descendants were able to address the law accordingly.Once the law is clear all involved will be able to address it accordingly. Open enrollment with an indefinite moratorium is ambiguous at best.
I have a different view about dis-enrollment, but this isn't the thread for that topic.
Someone other than sanjuanflorist has to test the waters and perhaps learn whether there really is a portion of the tribal population that wants to consider non-enrolled kins-persons, so again I ask:
Its , January 27, 2010
Who has asked for a review of their application or submitted an application for review?

t'eetilawuncha! said...

As with many things in life, the squeeky wheels gets the grease. This has worked for the CPP. Loud obnoxious behavior, and threats have gotten them to were they are today. It is a slow process. The splinter group, AKA CPP have continued this battle for 30 plus yrs. I have said before, our kindness should never be mistaken for weakness.

For all my relations, and friends.

Anonymous said...

what are you talking about?


hope?

enrollment?

I we all together on the same page now?

EVERYONE?

Anonymous said...

well, we only have three more days for the quickest month in history to fly by.

For all those that are disenrolled, aamokat' and others, how are your families holding up?

When you are reinstated, don't forget us other guys out here, Promise??

I have been doing my fair share of reading lately on all the disenrollments taking place within many of the tribes and find myself asking what right do we have for sitting in judgment on eachother. The moratoriums and the disenrollments are products of one foolish act. 100 years ago all of our families worked together and today, that is not happening. When things are set to rights, I hope that we have all learned lessions that will keep us from repeating these same things 100 years from now.

We need to write it down, pass it down and make promises to ourselves that we will not repeat it all again.

Here is another question. If the BIA is in charge of indian affairs, why do they not or cannot force accountability within tribes? What am I missing? What exactly do we pay them to do??? or is this another way Obama can save money??

Anonymous said...

humans always at your best when at your worst,

you people done wrong just won,t go away ,never stop trying!

Anonymous said...

In response to Allen Lee I am anonymous January 27, 2010 6:51 AM, but I didn't post "Does anyone really think anyone will actualy be enrolled? ever?, i dont think so." I think enrollment of some will come over time and as those people get enrolled it may help others get enrolled. I do agree that the tribe has taken steps to restrict enrollment, and the tribe should also make a firm stance on open enrollment.

Allen L. Lee said...

To anonymous of January 27, 2010 2:34 PM

I think that 100 years from now people are going to look back at the Casino era with the same disdain that they look back now at the Dawes era. If I'm wrong I won't be here to find out, but all the similarities of cultural distress are there.
If one has a choice between poverty and prosperity, the choice is easy, and I don't begrudge those who have prospered with Casino dollars, but Casino dollars seem to be more of a tool of assimilation, like Dawes allotments, then they are a tool of indigenous self preservation. There are ways where said moneys are being used for indigenous interests, but they seem few and far between.
During the Dawes era, hundreds of tribal members found themselves at odds with their tribes and in U.S. courts over parcels of land and the right to be recognized as a tribal citizen/member. Today, thousands of tribal members find themselves at the same odds with their tribes and in U.S. courts, and not surprisingly enough, the right to be recognized as a tribal citizen/member, over Casino dollars. Money is a tool, and like any tool, if used improperly, can cause great harm, “Conflict Diamonds” from Africa come to mind. It can also be used for a greater good, but it is up to the people who hold the tool in their hands how they use it.

jesse james said...

zzzzzzzzzzzzz

Anonymous said...

Well, I really like Mr. Lee's perspective.

I do think that because of the secrecy of the tribe, which in some part, I can understand and which the BIA stated, with the casino came alot of people, real Pechangas and not, came a huge influx of applications.

Upon further reflection, I can see why the tribe has hidden behind closed doors. Although I don't understand much of the inner workings within the tribe, I realize that I should not judge it.

I do believe that new blood is always good. I also believe that the morotorium has outlived its life. I do get that in the beginning it must have been overwhelming for the EC. Although they have had years to go through, what a few hundred, so their time managment skills need help.

After rereading some of my earlier posts, I realize that to some I sounded judgmental or just plain mean. I at no time meant that the way it sounded and apologize. On my behalf, the only excuse I have was shock.

I do still stand that if I ever get enrolled, I want to be a part of it all. I want to help, clean, hire a PR person and open the cultural dept. up for everyone who wants to learn about where we came from and who we are today.

Thank you for this site for us to learn, vent, and to some extent, stand together. Also thank you aamokat' and Mr. Lee for your wisdom.


P.S. Although I have spoken about the not so friendly people within the tribe, I have also spoken to some very helpful people there.


sanjuanflorist

jesse james said...

allen lee is a tribal member,,,

'aamokat said...

Sanjuanflorist said,

"do think that because of the secrecy of the tribe, which in some part, I can understand and which the BIA stated, with the casino came alot of people, real Pechangas and not, came a huge influx of applications."

The thing is, when we were in the tribe we were told the moratorium, which started in 1997, was only supposed to be for one year so the enrollment committee could catch up on the applications and regardless what the BIA says that even if some non Pechangas showed up and tried to join because of the casino, none of them were ever enrolled.

Chairman Mark Macarro implied in his statement in the KNBC news segment "Without a Tribe," that tells the story of the Hunters,' that the disenrollments and the casino had something to do with each other and he made the statement that a lot of people turned up when the casino opened.

Well Macarro was either lying or is ignorant of the facts as most of the Hunters were enrolled years before the casino opened and a lot of us were enrolled before he was.

So was the BIA trying to imply the same thing, that our disenrollment was related to us joining because of the casino?

Well, it flat out isn't true and anyone who knows the facts knows better and like I said, they are lying or ignorant if they say differently.

And as far as the moratorium is concerned, people who did have their applications in before the deadline still have not been enrolled.

So should those people have been and continue to be penalized, which they are to this day?

Sanjuanflorist, I know you want to think the best of our people that they are not all scoundrels and while this is true and there are a lot of people who know that what happened to the disenrolled and also that the moratorium is wrong, not many of them are willing to stick their neck out and help us.

I actually had an elder about a year ago tell me he believed it was wrong what happened to my family but he just didn't get involved in those sort of things.

jesse james said...

did you hear me?

also sanjuan florist to mellow room.

smoke screen said...

he,s right

Anonymous said...

I am sorry, but I was not implying that the moratorium is right. I think from what I read that it is most likely illegal and well over used. I was just saying that I guess I could understand while all of you voted for it in the first place.

Like taxes and Levys, once they are put into place for "One year", they usually stick around much longer.

I actually was continuing my earlier post which asked the question of why was the moritorium and disenrollments enacted in the first place. I was just doing alternative reading and trying to answer my own questions.


What the heck is a mellow room??? and is that it??

I truly value what you say aamokat' and by your post it seems that you took what I had to say wrong. I was justifying what everyone enrolled started. It was nothing that I had any choice in. People in the tribe decided my future without question. I received no notice, no letter and no enroll now or forever lose your chance. It isn't right and yes I am mad.

I also keep hoping that something will change.

sanjuanflorist

family tree guy said...

armokat,,,,,,i dont care from what you have seen I said give me a name or connection to the original list of 300 people(its not that hard give me a name so I can trace the family tree)



As far as the Guavish line, from
what I have seen by them being in the censuses from the 1800s and in other records I believe that they are in fact original people

fish market manager said...

something smells here and its not my fish,,,,,

'aamokat said...

I have not even seen a list of 300 names from the 1875 eviction all I have seen is the possie's list which has 52 names on it, mostly all males, and most of the women and children were not listed.

The Indian agent at the time did say there were about 300 Indians who were evicted from the old village sites but where is the complete list? That's news to me if there is one.

I am not sure what the division is anyway as anyone who can show a direct connection to Indians from the original reservation and/or the old village should be eligible for tribal membership and that can take the form of several documents be they the allotments, census records, probate records, the possie list, etc.

My view is to be inclusive, as our ancestors were, instead of being exclusive, the way it turned out to be.

The first written application of 1978 listed among the ways to prove tribal membership, being a direct descendant of an original allottee, a direct descendant of a Temecula Indian, being vouched for by a recognized tribal member, or by a recognized member of one's line of descent.

But if you are the person who posted on the other thread that imposters got allotments, then since the tribe had 25 years to disptute the allotments, why didn't they dispute them if some of them weren't legitimate?

It just sounds like a conspiricy theory to me that a lot of the allotments weren't to legitimate tribal members.

Since none of us were around back in 1800's, and even the creation of the resevation happened over 125 years ago when records were at best fragmented, that one of several sources should be considered, not just one source, to insure that deserving people are not left out.

So yes I would say the Guavish Clan have proof they belong.

'aamokat said...

sanjuanflorist, I am proud to say that I voted against the moratorium extension in 2000 (I wasn't at the 1996 meeting when it first passed) as I didn't think it was fair then and it still isn't fair now.

So no we didn't all vote for it but the reasoning, as I said, was to get caught up on the applications but why has it lasted almost 13 years?

Conspiracy theorists, post some facts not just rheoric!

Anonymous said...

I am so glad there were members who voted against the moratorium.

I was speaking to some friends and they stated that we should talk to some very good attorneys who have won cases against the BIA. Sounds too simple, but it made me think.

I know that disenrolled members have tried to take it to the court system, but maybe we are doing this wrong. How about we get a law passed that states that in order for disenrollments to happen, there needs to be an arbitrator who is present during the tribes final decision making. That no tribe can dispute and that acts as a mediator. That way when prooof beyond a reasonable doubt is given by the defense, the tribe can not kick you out for whatever reason they have given. I think it could work with all tribes and whatever their standards are for enrollment.

As with the Redding tribe, the family that was disenrolled should never have been even near the auction block. With a third party, I think that would have been prevented. The Hunters are another family that showed proof beyond a reasonable doubt and I believe with a third party that too would have been prevented.

What is everyones feelings on a third party court appointed arbitrator being installed during final tribal decision making?

'aamokat said...

There is a local intertribal court among some of the neighboring tribes around Pechanga but Pechanga would not sign on with it as they don't want even unbiased Indians ruling on what they consider their sovereign right to do whatever they want regardless if their actions are right or wrong.

I would love to have an independent arbitrator hear our case but Pechanga would never go for it.

Can you imagine having your citizenship challenged, which is what happened when we were disenrolled, and being told the following:

1. You can't have any legal representation at any of the proceedings.

2. You can't have any copies of transcripts of any of the proceedings, which made it very difficult to prove that key steps in the disenrollment procedures were skipped and your case was fast tracked to a decision against you.

3. That during your appeal of the enrollment committee's verdict to the tribal council you were not allowed to take notes, ask questions, or present anything to refute the conclusions of the committee, that you had to submit the very same evidence that the committee had turned down.

4. That family members of the enrollment committee members and a tribal councilman, who at both stages of the process, turned out to be the deciding votes in kicking us out of the tribe, submitted statements questioning our membership but their relatives were still allowed to rule on our case despite clear bias against our family.

5. That every piece of evidence in your favor, including notarized statements from tribal elders not related to the committee members or part of the CPP faction of the tribe, was promptly ignored in favor of the hearsay "so called evidence" that the family and friends of the deciding votes on the committee and in the council.

I would gladly accept any verdict any fair and impartial body would render and even though Mark Macarro claims the rule of law prevailed in our disenrollments, would any real court of law permit the gross unfairness and onesidedness of what transpired at our disenrollments?

The anwser of course is a resounding, no!

Anonymous said...

OK, well you just answered my question. If there was a third party (so called Jury) that is unbiased and fair to sit in on ALL disenrollment hearings they could call to attention, stop and control a situation that is out of control.

I understand that there may be some families not legally entitled to the tribe which they may be enrolled, but I think that may be the few. I am thinking that maybe the families disenrolled are the ones that hold large numbers. Within a successful tribe everyone should hold stock, so to speak.

So here is the question, Has anyone ever thought to lobby for a bill that FORCES all tribes to have a court system that holds everyone accountable.

If a bill is passed that requires final hearings for disenrollments to be arbitrated, what does a legitate tribe have to fear??? That would prove they were right just as much as it would prove they were wrong.

I would like to talk more about this if everyone thinks that I am thinking correctly or understand what has been happening.

don juan said...

get real ,,,,there was the first pechanga case that was tossed out of state court but,,,,I believe this was wrong the state does have jurisdiction because of public law 280.

Allen L. Lee said...

Of course the best thing would be for the tribe as a sovereign to do what is right, but as it has been stated time and again, sovereignty is the right to make self-determined decisions, both good and bad. California claimed the same authority when it passed it's Anti Gay Marriage laws, which I think is unconstitutional, but belongs in another forum.
Sovereigns can be supported by other sovereigns for good decisions and admonished by other
sovereigns for bad decisions.
Unbiased and objective review by a third party would be good, but would it be non-binding arbitration or some sort of inter-tribal supremacy laws, kind of like the supremacy laws the federal government has with the states? Inter-tribals could adopt international human rights laws without federal intervention. That to me would be preferable to PL 280.
I'm against Pl 280 in all it's form and power and any compact forced between a state and a tribe.
Why you ask?
"2. Why was Public Law 280 Enacted?
Practically every analysis of Public Law 280 begins with a reference to the pendulum of federal policy swing between
Indian self-determination with an emphasis upon respecting tribal sovereignty and tribal self-government and,
Indian termination with an emphasis upon terminating Indian Nations in order to assimilate their members into the dominant society.
Public Law 280 was enacted in the 1950’s - a period of termination and assimilation in Indian country - and it must be examined and understood within the context of the time period in which it was enacted. Public Law 280 was enacted in 1953 at the height of the post-World War II assimilationist period which included:
the adoption in 1953 of House Concurrent Resolution 108 which established tribal termination as the official federal policy and singled out specific Indian Nations for termination, and the implementation of the Bureau of Indian Affairs "relocation" program to encourage Indians to leave the reservations and seek employment in various metropolitan centers.(4)"
http://www.aidainc.net/Publications/pl280.htm
I guess this will be the last time I ask this question this year:
Who has submitted an application for open enrollment or ask for a previously submitted application to be reviewed?

Anonymous said...

The thought of this law is a good idea, but it would never work. First, the tribes have the politics power and money to push laws they want and stop ones they don't want. Second, the state doesn't really have any authority over tribes, which is why the courts stay out of things. If this is the route you want to go you would really need to push for it at the federal level.

Anonymous said...

When I posed the question, yes it was put up for federal consideration.

Since the BIA is a federal entity whom was given the right to help and regulate the indian nation, I would assume they also have the right to hold accountability that all tribes follow their own constitutions and bylaws.

I am not thinking of total control by the government but I am thinking that arbitrators should be present when disenrollments and moratoriums have been put into place.

When tribes became federally recognized, they had to adopt these "bylaws" and have them approved. I just think that someone has to make sure they are being followed.

There are I imagine 1000's of people disenrolled that have friends whom could push the idea that accountability is what is needed.

There has to be a method of making sure that everyone is accountable for thier own rules that they created. Even the President of the United States has a check system in place.

rookie said...

horse crap then why was 280 enacted?

rookie said...

Public Law 280
Public Law 83- 280 (commonly referred to as Public Law 280 or PL 280) was a transfer of legal authority (jurisdiction) from the federal government to state governments which significantly changed the division of legal authority among tribal, federal, and state governments. Congress gave six states (five states initially - California, Minnesota, Nebraska, Oregon, and Wisconsin; and then Alaska upon statehood) extensive criminal and civil jurisdiction over tribal lands within the affected states (the so-called "mandatory states"). Public Law 280 also permitted the other states to acquire jurisdiction at their option. Public Law 280 has generally brought about:

Allen L. Lee said...

Purpose of Congress in passing Public Law 280 (18 USCS § 1162; 28 USCS §§ 1360, 1362) was to permit Indians to become full and equal citizens of their respective states and to terminate wardship of federal government over their affairs. Rincon Band of Mission Indians v County of San Diego (1971, SD Cal) 324 F Supp 371, affd (CA9 Cal) 495 F2d 1, cert den 419 US 1008, 42 L Ed 2d 283, 95 S Ct 328 and cert den 419 US 1022, 42 L Ed 2d 295, 95 S Ct 497.
28 USCS § 1360 confers on California jurisdiction over individual members of Indian tribes but not over Indian tribes themselves; tribal sovereignty is dependent on and subordinate to federal government rather than to state. Long v Chemehuevi Indian Reservation (1981, 4th Dist) 115 Cal App 3d 853, 171 Cal Rptr 733, cert den 454 US 831, 70 L Ed 2d 109, 102 S Ct 129.
State jurisdiction of civil actions must not interfere with Indian self-government, absent some compelling state interest. Duluth Lumber & Plywood Co. v Delta Development, Inc. (1979, Minn) 281 NW2d 377.

http://tuscaroras.com/jtwigle/pages/pl83-280.shtml

Anonymous said...

After reading PL 280, I took it to mean that tribes were able to enforce crimes within the reservation to only those that reside or abuse the reservation.
Except for the fact that I know here, that tribal pokice can hand out speeding tickets, etc....

I did not get out of the article that it envolved anything else. I still think that the BIA might be able to overrule tribal decisions if they so chose to join the battle.

I am still unsure why a tribe would want to become smaller when numbers mean more power, clout and prestige.

sanjuanflorist

Anonymous said...

When you are put into moratorium, are you given notice????

Anonymous said...

Here is a little applause for the Pechanga indian tribe.

As I was reading about Temecula, I realized that the town and its surrounding was very small and "old". I think that when the band was able to put in the casino, which is very beautiful and the people there very nice and professional, and other business ventures, it helped to make Temecula what it is today.

The town of Temecula is a beautiful town. Even in the rain storm, I could see the beauty, the jobs that were created and the economy looked liked it was holding its own.

Whomever designed the casino did an A+ job. It is as beautiful as the Tulalip casino in Washington.

I do so wish to have met some of my relations and some of the tribal members and non members, to see what they are like.

Sometimes I think we are all so judgmental that the good is lost in the mix.

I realize this is probably not the right thread for this, but I wanted to say that you all did a great job, whatever might be happening now.

About the cemetary, if at anytime someone knows the wereabouts of their families resting spot, a beautiful engraved brick can be added so the future descendants, may find and pay tribute to those who are gone. And yes, if you can't tell, I could not find my grandmother. :)

Thank you for allowing me my time to vent, ask questions, find answers and hopefully contribute something.

sanjuanflorist

mark macarro said...

zzzzzzzzz

andy masiel said...

move on with your lives!

'aamokat said...

Sanjuanflorist said, "Sometimes I think we are all so judgmental that the good is lost in the mix."

It is not judgmental to say that we, the Hunters, did not get a fair trial in our disenrollment proceedings because nothing could be further from the truth.

It is also not judgmental to say that a lot of current tribal members are greedy as witnessed by a recent vote to not process applications of people who were found to have had their applications in before the deadline for the moratorium.

And it is not judgmental to say the tribe misrepresented what was going to be done with the property known as the Great Oak Ranch when they promised both congress and the U.S. Dept. of Interior that no changes were going to made to that land but once they got it they tore it up and put a golf course on it.

Sanjuanflorist, I know you want to think positive about our people and while there are a lot of decent people, I question how brave a lot of them are because not many of them have been willing to stick their necks out and speak out about the injustices that have occured.

I would also like to think Native Americans are somehow more spiritual than other people but I think that it is largely wishful thinking as any group of people are equally able to do good or evil and no, Indians are no different than any other people in that regard.

Anonymous said...

You are right, I do want to believe the best of OUR tribe. I hope to oneday be enrolled and welcomed by the very source of what makes me who I am today.

I know that mistakes have been made and I believe that oneday they will be rectified.

Yes people can be an ugly lot, heck I was married to one of the worst, but it didn't change how I view people which I am thankful.

I still don't understand how the moratorium can be in existance if it goes against tribal law. Something has to be in place for such occurances, I would think.

I hope that their are many people who are good and decent within the tribe. We all have to face our maker oneday and hopefully with our head held high. Money, etc doesn't go with us.

sanjuanflorist

Anonymous said...

Has anyone heard if the enrollment committee has earned their keep? Have they even enrolled any children?

Anonymous said...

after reading many different comments on many threads, how is it that disenrollments are allowed if it is illegal and why aren't they overturned?

If it is stated that no disenrollments after 2005, how were the Hunters removed? Does that mean that no more ever can happen again? Is that to protect the enrolled members with no proof?

Anonymous said...

I have heard of no kids being enrolled.

Anonymous said...

well, I just received all my paperwork back from the tribe. It states in my letter that due to the moratorium my application will not be processed. It also states that it is "not necessary for me to submit any future applications."

WHAT?

sanjuanflorist

'aamokat said...

"If it is stated that no disenrollments after 2005, how were the Hunters removed? Does that mean that no more ever can happen again? Is that to protect the enrolled members with no proof?"

The tribe claims sovereignty that they can do what they please even if it means they don't even follow their own laws so no outside entity has been able to have jurisdiction to make the tribe enforce its own rules.

The whole tribe received a letter in March 2006 informing the membership that we weren't covered by the new law, just two days before we the Hunters received our letters informing us we were kicked out of the tribe, obviously timed so that we could not respond to the council's ruling.

The tribal council claimed that the petition didn't change the membership requirments so we were not covered by the new law despite the fact that the attorney from Indian legal services said that the membership could rule to stop all disenrollments, Chairman Mark Macarro said "all means all" when he was asked if the new law covered all tribal members who were in as of the date in June 2005, and despite the fact that the disenrollment procedures no longer existed as a part of tribal law as of that June 2005 date.

The council also claimed that the enrollment committee is the final authority on enrollment and disenrollment, that the General Membership could not overrule enrollment committee decisions, that it violated established tribal legal precedant.

However, we claim that the tribe violated its own constitution by allowing biased people, whose family members submitted challenges to our tribal membership, to rule on our disenrollment cases, who by the way were the deciding votes against us and who ignored every piece of evidence in our favor that was turned in that we maintain proves we are Pechanga.

The committee even ignored their own hired expert, Dr. John Johnson, who said in his report to the committee that according to surviving historical documents we are Pechanga Temecula people.

Also, there is tribal legal precedant that shows just the opposite of what the council maintained in its March 2006 letter.

In 1986, after the enrollment committee had turned down the applications for enrollment of the heirs of Rose Murphy, including Russell Butch Murphy, the tribe voted to overrule the committee and take in the Muprhys as tribal members.

So sitting councilman Mr. Murphy is living proof that the General membership does trump the enrollment committee regarding membership issues and that the council's ruling against the Hunters was fradulent and not based on established legal precedant.

Can the tribe go around the 2005 law again and disenroll more people?

I say it is possible as who would stop them, because of sovereignty, if they did so?

Sanjuanflorist, I and others have posted many times in the archives what the bogus contentions were that led up to our disenrollment but I still haven't forgotten and I will, when I get a chance, again post a brief post on what transpired.

Allen L. Lee said...

To sanjuanflorist
"Aamokat and I had a discussion a while back about this in which we coined term, Pechanga's version of Murphy's Law"
Aamokat said:
" So sitting councilman Mr. Murphy is living proof that the General membership does trump the enrollment committee regarding membership issues "

It's an important condition of federal recognition that the general membership is in authority rather than a tribal bureau or a political faction.
As for the answer you received. I think it is a legal proof that the tribe does not have open enrollment, hasn't had open enrollment for several years and if it is true that no tribal minors were enrolled, has no intention of open enrollment for moratorium people or legal descendants. When the courts ask if persons have exhausted all tribal remedies, the response you received will give a clearer picture.

justice coming said...

This case made the indian civil rights act criminal and yes the us gov can assert criminal jurisdiction against pechanga officals.

Finally, it is relevant to note that tribal governments are dependent sovereigns not independent foreign ones. As part of this dependent status, the U.S. government serves as a trustee and has a direct responsibility as a trustee to protect the civil rights granted by Congress to the Native Americans living on the reservations. We believe failure of the United States to assert criminal jurisdiction over activity on a reservation when the tribal government no longer operates legitimately would be an abrogation of the U.S. government's trustee relationship with tribes such as the Chippewa. We thus conclude that Clark and Rawley may be prosecuted in federal court under § 241 because such conspiracy encompassed a violation of the ICRA, a law of the United States.

ice man said...

bang bang

Anonymous said...

OH MY GOD!!!!!!!!


The are some completely heartless and selfish people out there. Yes, I know I am just realizing this pretty little fact but talk about blatant disregard for fellow persons.

Finally after a complete idiot of an exhusband, I am now shocked at the abuse we get from our own kind, federal officials and tribal corporations.

Pechanga is NOT a tribe but a corporation who looks out for those they deem worthy.

I just spoke with the BIA, Frances Muncy to be exact, and she stated that it is not the job of the BIA to look out for fellow Native Americans. Surprise surprise.

O.K. now what. I know aamokat' and his family are taking it further, but can we not all join in the fight??

I am pissed and have been spreading the work and my friends are pissed. That is a start. Now I want to take it further. I have attorney friends looking up names for me to contact. What can I do?

What right does a tribe have for taking away and ignoring my birthright?? Without the participation of my family, they would not have gotten this far. It took ALL of our families as a unit to make a tribe, reservation, etc. together. Who do they think they are to say we can not be counted today??

Yea, I know I am a little late in the ballgame, but better late than never, I guess.

Why can't we all work together to force the government to hold accountable the tribes own constitution and bylaws?? Instead of picking apart pieces of the tribes own laws, can't we make a general law to enforce accountability?? Ms. Muncy stated that they only care for land trusts. Big fricken deal. We, the tax payers, pay billions a year for the BIA let them earn their money for a change or we are going to see a more rampant amount of disenrollments and discord within the tribes.

How about a billboard ad telling the good folks of California that a decent tribal casino is only a few miles south. Billboard what Pechanga is doing and people would notice. Cheap advertisement, huge embarrassment. I would chip in.

It makes me sad to know that they can strip away or not acknowlege someones birthright. How can people be so cruel?

I am so sorry to all that have been disenrolled, me I want to belong, you have been raped by your friends and greed.

Please let me join your fight.

To those who read this and are enrolled, stand up for what is right, you will still get a check but it will be with honor. Our families back in the 1800's, most had honor, mine did, how can you sit quietly behind and let tradition slowly die??

sanjuanflorist

billyjack said...

muncy has been blowing smoke up my ass for 12 years,,,san juan since the tribes constitution states the bia can,t step in on membership they can,t do anything?

The problem is its the temecula indian tribe not pechanga so they can step in they did not reconize pechanga as a tribe.There no spin off thats racketeering.

pechanga virgin said...

hello all!

Anonymous said...

sanjuanflorist I wouldn't get so upset, what exactly did you think waws going to happen; I mean people have been in the moratorium for years. As for your application it is likely that they made a copy and filed it away, so that is why you don't need to keep sending in an application each year. And as for not enrolling minors, I think that is highly unlikely; of course the minor does have to be a child of a current enrolled tribal member.

Anonymous said...

I guess I got angry because I was unclear of what exactly they did with my application. I took it to mean never. If I was put in the moratorium that is fine since that is what is in place at the moment. The letter did not state what they did with my application if anything. The way the letter was written leaves holes.

sanjuanflorist

Anonymous said...

Your best better is to call them and get clarification. Tell them your are just confirming they have received and filed your application. Either way you have record that when it was sent in so if the moratorium opens up you could prove you sent in your application when you did.

Anonymous said...

thank you

sanjuanflorist

Anonymous said...

hello, i have had an application on file for 16 years, my mother is the eldest of 14 children from pechanga my aunts are enrolled but not my mother, her application has been on file for 17 years, moritorium after moritorium nothing!

birdies baby

'aamokat said...

The moratorium has been in place since 1997, so if your applications were in before then, then you should be enrolled even under the bogus law in place.

But reportedly the tribe voted in 2008 to not process applications found to have been submitted before 1997 that were date stamped before then.

I understand that some tribal members before the vote said, "so we would have to share our money with them if they are enrolled?"

So if your applications were in before the deadline, then it shows more of the continued lawlessness that has been prevailing for quite some time at Pechanga.

Anonymous said...

What I find interesting is the disconnect within the same family lines on enrollment issues. How is it that brothers and sisters are enrolled, but one family member is left out?

For me it shows that its everyone for themselves instead of working together. It kinda like a punishment of some kind.

I know that when I did our family tree, got the 1928 application, and the many other documents, I sent them to my mom, sister, as well as my one last uncle who probably won't be around when the moratorium gets open.

The question still remains that when this gets settled will the people feel the need to process a few or the whole.

Is it true that private people can't sue a tribe but a tribe can sue private people????

sanjuanflorist

Anonymous said...

Does any lnow how much the monthly residual would be from this casino?