Friday, November 6, 2009

WHO is caught in the Pechanga Moritorium on Membership of Rightful People UPDATE

UPDATE: Have moved this up on the blog so that those caught up in the moratorium can find it easier. It's been up for TWO weeks and we still haven't heard from what? Two people? Please moratorium people, we are giving YOU a place to be heard, so stand up and let's hear from you

We have a couple of commenters who bemoan the fact that there aren't many stories or comments on the unconstitutional Pechanga Tribe of Temecula, CA's moratorium of new members.

The moratorium has been in place for 12 years now and it was created to "give the enrollment committee" time to catch up. We ask: How is that "catch up" going? Can the enrollment committee be so INEPT that they can't look at the applications and see who rightfully belongs?

Below is a story we posted in December of 2008 describing one family. We will post it again in its entirety and would LOVE to read comments from those in the moratorium. Tell us YOUR story, what family you belong to, how many are in your family that SHOULD be in the Pechanga tribe. Let's HEAR FROM YOU.

From December 2008:

Pechanga's Moratorium People: From Pechanga, But Not OF Pechanga

The Rios/Tosobal Family has ties to the Pechanga tribe, from his mother back to his great-great-great-grandmother, born in 1811. (That’s when Abe Lincoln was 2 years old!)

So, when his mother died in 1978 and left him a piece of reservation land, Manuel Rios Jr. began trying to make arrangements to bring water and electricity to the plot so he could set up a home there. 30 years later, he has yet to get tribal approval to do anything with the land.
Tribal officials had told him he and his family are not on the rolls, he said, and they won’t get considered for membership until a moratorium on new enrollments is lifted now extended past 2010. His family members, who number more than 100, have stacks of documents that they say they submitted to the enrollment committee 15 years ago.

As a nonmember, the Rios family has no recourse against the sovereign nation. He can’t sue the tribe in an outside or tribal court, and he can’t vote on the moratorium or cast a ballot against the elected tribal leaders.

The reservation has changed dramatically since Rios’ mother was a girl there, thanks to the opening of a $262 million resort and casino and other businesses. Now that tribal members collect a reported $30,000 in gaming profits a month, disputes over membership are commonplace.

Rios and others insist they once were members, and they allege that someone removed their names in order to ensure larger shares of gaming profits for the other members.
Tribal Chairman Mark Macarro has said tribes work hard to make sure that there’s due process in enrollment matters, yet, in reality, there is no due process.
He also contends that many recent applicants had no interest in the tribe until it was rich. ‘‘Where were these people before there was a casino?’’ Macarro asked.

Rios’ 53-year-old son, Manuel Rios Jr. of Riverside, said he’s glad his grandmother left the reservation, and her descendants avoided being mired in reservation poverty because of it. ‘‘I was out getting an education so I wouldn’t have to suck the money from the state of California to support me,’’ he said in an interview in Fontana. ‘‘We were paying for their (tribal member’s) welfare.’’

The Rios family members contend that the Pechanga tribal leadership is using sovereignty to improperly deny them membership and is acting like a dictatorship. In fact, Pechanga’s own constitution provides for OPEN ENROLLMENT every January. In the most recent disenrollment of the Hunter family, which occurred in 2006, the tribe stated that the membership, which voted to stop ALL disenrollments, had no authority to do so. That would mean, they have the power to keep people from getting IN, but no the authority to keep people from getting thrown OUT. That makes no sense at all.


Anonymous said...

twelve years to go through aplications? You ought to take some of that money you get every month, and get an education,you apperantly cant read! Stop the moratorium already

Anonymous said...

thanks got tired of hearing only dis enrolled stuff many others affected!

true pechanga

'aamokat said...

That is true twelve years is obsene!

We were told that the enrollment committee needed a year to get caught up on applications so the moratorium was supposed to only last a year but it kept being extended.

The argument for those who supported the moratorium when votes were taken to extend it was that people had all of those years before 1997 to to join so why hadn't they?

Never mind that the moratorium is unconstitutional as the Band's constitution says that open enrollment is the first month of every year.

Well fast forward into the 2000s and we find that even people who had their applications in before the 1997 deadline were and are still being denied tribal membership.

So it isn't about the money?

Anonymous said...

I belive that not a thing is going to change till mark is eather ousted or put in jail why is it that no one has challanged his postion with the tribe . is it that no one thinks they are smart enough or that you all are to honest none the less we need a change NOW . I know you are probly think that why isn,t this person doing anything LET MY FAMILY BE INROLLED and you will see a honest change . I for one want to enter the SPIRT WORLD nowing Ihave done good in this one

OPechanga said...

We have AGAIN given the moratorium people an opportunity to SPEAK OUT on this blog.

Why is it that there is little or no response from you?

Other than you are tired of hearing about disenrolled. WELL? SPEAK UP? WHAT IS YOUR STORY?

WHY do you belong at Pechanga. How many are in your family? Elders? Children?


Anonymous said...

ah, yeah we are, maybe alot of moratorium people have given up, or their tired of hearing about the hunters!

Anonymous said...

this story has been on your blog for a couple of days GIVE EVERYBODY A CHANCE!

Pechanga Person said...

If moratorium and disenrolled people have given up, then why should anybody care about you?

Why should politicians care?

Why should other tribes care?

If we, you, they don't have the intestinal fortitude to stay with the fight/struggle what does that say?

Anonymous said...

How much time does it take for a moratorium person to stand up for themselves?

They've had years to get their story together. Why isn't it ready?

Anonymous said...

what story are you talking about? the fact of the matter is, We did all we could, its always the same story,I dont know if your a hunter or someother lucky indian that was in the tribe collecting per caps all these years,at least were in the moratorium your not, if your one of the disenrolled forget it ,youll never get back in!

'aamokat said...

"This story has only been on this blog for a couple of days?

"People are tired of hearing about the Hunters?"

Well, this blog is run by a member of the Hunter family and this story is a repost of a story that has been here as a link on the left side of this blog with a large link titled "Moratorium People" for almost a year now.

For those who don't know, the name 'aamokat means Hunter in the Luiseno language so a Hunter again is presenting some facts about one moratorium family and I will continue to do so even if a lot of the moratorium people won't take the time to come here and present it themselves.

Why am I doing it? Because it is wrong that the moratorium people are still stuck on the outside looking in.


"The Tosabols not only have ancestors listed on the census records from the late 1800's, their family also have allotments of land on the reservation.

They can also show their family was at the Temecula Indian village before the eviction of the people in the 1870's.

But that still isn't good enough for tribal membership?

But they, unlike us now, still have blood relatives who are current tribal members.

The Pechanga constitution and bylaws says open enrollment is the first month of each year so the moratorium that has kept them and many others out of the tribe for going on thirteen years is obscene.

But the real kicker is they have a stronger claim on tribal membership then some of people who led the charge to keep them out of the tribe and who also led the way in kicking us out.

But once again, if a tribe doesn't even follow their own rules, who can make them do so?"

P.S. for anyone who is tired about hearing about the Hunters, than don't come to this, a Hunter run blog. Otherwise come here and contribute and tell your own stories. After all, a Hunter is providing this forum for you so take advantage of it.

Anonymous said...

well Iam speaking up. but first tell me your story. are you one of our family members because you know our story

Anonymous said...

Dear pechange person My family will never give up. our dignity nor our pride nor the fact that we are true temecula indians.we will just keep getting stronger and stronger and stay healthy. cant say the same for some of the heavys that are sick and unhealthy. tell me are you not afraid to meet the great sprit in the after life I would be tell you what have one of your family members slip a hundred in your pocket so you can buy your soul and sprit back you think so not

Anonymous said...

aamokat hunters Iam thankful Wehave a place were we can set the record straight With out you we wouldnt. Dont let some J.K. A.S. TELL YOU DIFFERENT THANK YOU

Anonymous said...

I will start the story. make sure you read it. It starts with lies dishonesty and corruption. it starts with the fact that we are allways lied to from the person at the front desk to inrolled family we are told Icant help you or this is a good one the inrollment commite is not in or do you have an appointment or we will call you back Iam still waiting from 2004 for them to call back we all have our paper work showing who we are and our land on the REZ I would like to hear from more people on the moratorium and desenrollment because when you look at we are all the same Indians and proud of it. this is the first part of the story

Anonymous said...

Well you must be in the tribe because you cant spell! This is a good site all you can do is vent and nothing else tribal members dont care what we say or do, they will never let us in!

Anonymous said...

This was for the person who couldnt spell jack a..!

'aamokat said...

No, I am not from the Tosobols as I said, 'aamokat means Hunter so I am a direct descendant of Paulina Hunter.

I look at the moratorium and disenrollment as two parts of the same problem of people losing or being denied tribal membership.

I put out some information from what I have read in some of the historical documents and from what the constitution and bylaws says regarding open enrollment to help show that it is wrong that people are stuck in the moratorium.

And frankly most of the moratorium people aren't putting this information out there so in a way I am doing their job even though some of them come here and put us down for supposedly forgetting about the moratorium people and talking about the Hunters and disenrollment on this, a Hunter run blog.

So, as I said, if some of you don't want to hear about the Hunters, then don't come to this blog and start your own blog.

Because frankly I have had enough of this stupid bickering back and forth as I am just trying to help.

'aamokat said...

Thank you anonymous of 8:24 October 28, 2009. I should notice the good comments more than the bad ones.

Keep coming back.

Anonymous said...

your right, all of this crap the dienrolled and moratoium people have to put up with all these years is rediculous!we should stand together and defeat adolph macarro and the keep your mouth shut tribal members! Im really tired of all this waitng.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous from 8:55 telling the moratorium gets off to a start. These questions need to be asked:

1 WHO did you talk to?
2 WHAT Family are you descended from?
3 HOW MANY are caught in the moratorium, INCLUDING youngsters
4 Who are some of the ENROLLED family members that didn't help you out?
5 Which land grant do you have?

Please fill in the details instead of giving broad statements

Anonymous said...

the statement from 8:04, who are you the enrollment committee? It seems some moratorium people are talking, but you keep shooting us down! Oh i forgot this is the hunter blog, excuse me.

Allen L. Lee said...

Ok, Anonymous of 12:44,
Your starting to sound like a weak crybaby. If you don't have the intestinal fortitude(guts) to at least stand and fight for yourself, win or lose, then I see no reason why someone else should fight for you.
If you've given up and don't understand the value of perserverance, being that even if it doesn't come in your lifetime that your grandchildren will know what is rightfully theirs because you taught them, then you should just get out of the way of people who are actually in the struggle.
On another note, anonymous's complaint is a good example of how
tribal constitutionalism is coming into conflict with traditional tribal band and clan identities and the right to belong. I'm not saying either is right or wrong, but how bands and clans were and are identified as parts of tribes is different, and perhaps should be examined

Allen L. Lee said...

One more thing Anon. of 12:44,
One of the differences I have had with 'aamokat was over whether the moratorium people have the same right of claim as the dis-enrolled.
My position is that although it may be the right thing to do to enroll some of the moratorium people, they have no right to be enrolled because they can not prove a prior recognition for themselves like the dis-enrolled can. 'Aamokat, a Hunter, came to the defense of the moratorium people and argued that they have just as valid a right to belong as some of the dis-enrolled. That is well demonstrated in the moratorium article on this blog.
My guess is that you didn't write that article?
You should take more care not to alienate your allies, but of course if you have already given up you really don't need allies.
What basis do you claim a right or desire to be a Pechanga citizen, or are you just another pretender or wannabe hiding out with legitimate claimants?

'aamokat said...

Mr. Lee, regardless if I was pissed off at a moratorium person or persons for complaining about us the disenrolled if this person is from the family I think he or she is from, he or she has more of a right to be in the tribe than some of the people still in the tribe who led the charge in getting the moratorium in place and getting us kicked out of the tribe.

Also, O.P. is the one who wrote the article here about the moratorium.

To the anonymous critic moratorium person, shooting you down?

Give me a break as we are standing up for you and you are the one shooting us down.

Mr. Lee, some of the moratorium people resent us because in their opinion we didn't do enough to help them when we were in the tribe.

Never mind that an elder of the Hunter family went to the enrollment committee and the tribal council and spoke out against the moratorium and in fact was screamed at by an enrollment committee member, who said GET OUT! with a finger pointing at the door.

Also, right after the petition was passed that was supposed to end disenrollments we had plans of presenting a petition to end the moratorium but all of the General Membership meetings were cancelled until after we were kicked out of the tribe so we never got a chance to draft a petition for this.

The moratorium person or persons can believe this or not because frankly I don't care if he or she or they believe it or not anymore.

I will give a little historical opinion on the moratorium in my next post and then I am going to let this issue drop for a while and let someone else carry the ball.

'aamokat said...

The problem with the moratorium is that a lot of tribal members, even those who voted against it, don't know it is unconstitutional.

I know that the first time I voted on the moratorium was in 2000 when it was extended and even though I voted no, it passed and I honestly thought it was legal as the majority had voted for it and I hadn't read the fine print in the tribal constitution.

It wasn't until we were being investigated for disenrollment that I started learning more about tribal law but even then, unfortunately, I gained most of my knowledge after we were kicked out.

I think one of the problems is that the supporters of the moratorium have the votes and the opponents of it likely think even if they did draft a petition now, as seen by the recent vote of not processing applications that were in before the deadline for the moratorium, that they don't have the votes to pass it.

In hindsight, after reading the fine print in the constitution if I was still in the tribe I would argue to the council and at meetings that the moratorium should be ruled unconstitutional but I guess, at least for the forseeable future, I can't do anything about it.

One more thing moratorium person or persons, three of my nephews and about nine of my first cousins were stuck in the moratorium but the difference between them and you is that if it is lifted, they may never get in the tribe because we have been disenrolled while in threory you still have a shot at membership. So yes we Hunters have been affected by the moratorium too.

There, I have said all I am going to say on the subject for now so who is going to carry the ball next?

Anonymous said...

This is all getting out of hand we all have to calm down and work with each other.Ive talk to some moratorium people and understand their anger,to be on a illegal moratorium for twelve plus years, and not knowing if it will ever stop,Id be pissed off to.their are still some ex members that are still bragging about what they had.It happened to me,so give some of us a break. As for know it all Mr Lee, who are you to call a person on the moratorium a weak crybaby!, you arnt even indian, so keep your long boring weak comments to your self The nerve of you telling us we dont belong, kiss my a''!sounds like you work for maccarro

Anonymous said...

You don't have to be Indian to know what a "weak crybaby" is.

It sounds like the moratorium people keep saying "why won't anyone do something?" When the real question should be: "why are the moratorium people more outspoken?"

ALL Pechanga people could have signed up for 30 years, yet didn't do so. No matter, those that can trace their ancestry still belong.

The questions still remain:
WHAT family do you belong to?
WHY aren't ALL your family coming here to vent?
We got more Snoqualmie visitors here when we posted on this "Hunter Blog" about their issue.

Have all your family come here and tell your story.

creeper said...

Anonymus Oct.30, 8:48am

I enjoy reading Allen Lee's comments on this blog even if you don't. REGARDLESS IF HE IS INDIAN OR NOT, which I think he is,
as for me, thank you Allen.
Now, to address the moratorium issue: I have sent my application
for enrollment faithfully every year starting many, many yeas ago and was always denied by a return letter from the Pechanga Enrollment Committee, requesting to not send in any more applications due to an ongoing endless illegal moratorium.
Many of my cousins, aunts, uncles
etc. where enrolled members at the time.
Many of my enrolled family members tried to correct these problems, but by speaking up against Macarro and his Regime they where rewarded with disenrollment.
My sisters, my mother, my aunt and all of our children are direct descendant's of the Temecula Band
of the Luiseno Mission Indians and therefore the true Pechanga people.
My mother, my aunt and many of my family members would have had a chance for a longer life if they would have gotten the health benefits that all tribal members enjoy to this day.
In the past years as a member of
AIM and a board member of AIRRO
I have been involved and outspoken about the civil and human rights violations in Indian Country, demonstrated, traveled, talked to legislators at the State Capitol, spoke up on radio talk show's and together with other Natives from many other Tribes in California and outside of Ca.who are disenrolled and in moratorium's we have brought this
corruption to the attention of the News, Congress,the useless BIA and many other Organization'S .
Just so you all know, I am NOT stopping until this wrong is righted untill the IMPOSTERS at Pechanga are prosecuted and gone.
Mark Lucero

Anonymous said...

Gee, a Hunter in the moratorium. And one who knows how to spell out the issue.
Wasn't your grandfather Johnny Miller a war hero?
Pechanga doesn't want family of war heroes in the tribe, but Masiel Crimestarters are okay? child molesters like Vince Ibanez is okay?

Allen L. Lee said...

Thanks Creeper,
I'm in for keeps. Also I am not an Indian in the racial sense, I am a descendant of Choctaw Freedmen and not a tribal member,but I draw no distinction in the discrimination against Black tribal members disenrolled and Indian tribal members dis-enrolled.
Now to Anon "Weak Crybaby"
A question was placed on this board several times which I believe goes something like "If the tribe won't follow it's own laws, who will make them follow their own laws?"
If you have family members in the tribe that answer is clear, the general membership will make their leaders follow their laws, but you have to talk to them.
Pechanga civil rights is based on Pechanga law, and Pechanga people have to assert that. The most that the feds and states can or should do is refuse to support a tribal government that viiolates its own laws against its own citizens or inacts laws that conflicts with basic human or civil rights in the federal government. It has been well argued that Pechanga law has been violated in both the dis-enrollments and the moratorium.
Yes I did know Mark Maccarro way back when, haven't talked to him since before the Casino went up. We knew what the right thing to do was way back then and I believe we both know what the right thing to do today is, that is why I sign my full, true name in the hope that he is reading and listening.
So Anon. Weak Crybaby, the questions still stand.
"1 WHO did you talk to?
2 WHAT Family are you descended from?
3 HOW MANY are caught in the moratorium, INCLUDING youngsters
4 Who are some of the ENROLLED family members that didn't help you out?
5 Which land grant do you have?'"
and finally I am taking the liberty to re-post an 'Aamokat post because it is relevant to this thread:
"'aamokat said...
Of course we will not forget the moratorium people in fact, when I was still in the tribe, I went to a well known tribal elder with the idea of presenting a petition to end the moratorium.

I had never put together a petition so I needed help on how to present it as I didn't want the council throwing it out by me not following the proper procedure.

But this elder said we needed to stop the disenrollments before we tackled the moratorium issue but we were disenrolled before I had a chance to present my petition.

Realize that members of the Hunters were also stuck in the moratorium for years and they too never were able to be tribal members and they, at least at this time, may never have that chance unless all of the wrongs are made right.

At least you have a chance technically to be a tribal member if that God forsaken moratorium is ever lifted so I hope if you get in, you will help us as well.

I know in my heart that I never supported the moratorium and I voted against it when it was presented to the General Membership.

And mark my words, if I do get back in the tribe I will do all that I can to end this shameful bogus law!

August 19, 2009 8:03 PM

OPechanga said...

Thank you, Cousin Mark for spelling out what you have done so far.

1. Continue sending in applications: Remember, it's OPEN enrollment in January, Pechanga HAS an enrollment committee. Let's put them to work

2. JOIN in organizations such as AIRRO, which is fighting FOR your rights, even though many of US have stopped fighting. It's NOT TOO LATE to get back in the game.

3. Tell your story to your friends. Let them know what Pechanga has done, how they cheat their own, so why wouldn't they cheat their customer. They will tell their friends and the word of mouth will be strong.

4. Get your YOUNG into the fight. They have the most to gain. Many of us will die before we get back into the tribe.

'aamokat said...


Pechanga Veterans

We salute our Pechanga Veterans for your courage, honor and commitment.

Arviso, Lloyd G - Army
Banks, Ester - Army
Barcello, Fred L - Navy
Basquez, Tony D - USMC
Burbee, John D - Army
Burbee II, Charles - Army
Casas, Joseph - Army
Castillo, Peter A - Navy
Contreras, Frank - Air Force
Cuevas, Felipe - Army
Cuevas, David - Army
Dubois, Gary - Army
Fletcher, Edward P - USMC
Freeman, Clarence - Army
Garbani, Leo V - Army
Garcia, Louie J - Army
Garcia Jr, Louie J - USMC
Harris, William A - Air Force
Hayes, Carol - Army
Holley, James - Army
Holley, Lewis - USMC
Holley, Robert - USMC
Ibanez, Moses - Navy
Ibanez, Pedro - Army
Ibanez, Valetino - Army
Ibanez, Vincent - Navy
Ibanez Sr, Philip - Army
Macarro, Henry - Army
Macarro, Leslie M. - Army
Macarro, Stanley M - Army
Magee, Fred H - Navy
Masiel, Frank - Army
Michac, Pat - Army
Miller, Durio - Army
Miller, John D - Navy
Miller, Louie - Army
Miranda, Raymond D - Navy
Miranda, Joe - Army
Miranda, Alfred - Navy
Miranda, Fred Gregory - Army
Miranda Sr, Joseph - Navy
Murphy Sr, Patrick - Navy
Murphy, Richard L - Army
Murphy, Joseph Merideth - Army
Pico, Daniel R - Navy
Pico, John - Navy
Pico Murphy, Nadine -Navy
Pico Sr, Norman J - Army
Poole, MaryAnn - Navy
Ramirez, Alfred - Army
Ramos, Williams R - Army
Salazar, Edmond - Army
Salazar, Thomas - Army
Salazar, Raymond L - Army
Scearce Jr, Richard B - Navy
Smith, Maltilda - Army
Stevenson, Leslie J - Navy
Stevenson, Harwood - Navy
Todd, William P - USMC
Toomey, Jerome - Army
Toomey, Elizabeth J - USMC
Vasquez, Paul John - USMC
Vasquez, John Paul - Army

Eight of those military veterans are direct descendants of Paulina Hunter.

So the tribe is still claiming our family members as honored veterans but they won't claim them as tribal members?

There was a ninth veteran that was listed but was taken off of this list recently.

But I guess they haven't taken the other names off yet as they can't remember exactly who it is that they disenrolled.

P.S. they still list convicted child molestor Vincent Ibanez as an honored veteran but I guess that is OK because maybe back when he served he hadn't molested anyone yet or at least he hadn't been caught.

Allen L. Lee said...

A statement from the current President of Russia, Dmitry Medvedev, regarding Stalin's purge:
":Even now we can hear voices saying that these numerous deaths were justified by some supreme goals of the state... Nothing can be valued above human life, and there is no excuse for repressions... It is just as important to prevent the justification, under the pretext of putting the historical record straight, of those who killed their own people."
New York Times News Service.

The Russian President understands the respomsibilty of soveriegnty and Human Rights, but it wasn't the Russian President that won the Nobel Peace Prize, It was the newly elected U.S. president. This administration's tact in addressing sovereign respomsibility responsibilty among tribes under it's jurisdiction is:
"Nevertheless, 11 days after Obama was inaugurated, Justice Department lawyer Amber Blaha filed a hefty motion to dismiss the Vann case. So the court’s decision could disenfranchise an estimated 25,000 black Cherokees and their descendents, but Eric “New Birth of Freedom” Holder hasn’t withdrawn the motion to dismiss it."

Anonymous said...

Pachanga veterans from Tosbal family manuel rios Navy mike rios airforce

Anonymous said...

Dear disenrolled and moratorium INDIAN people . Let us make this inrollment date january one they wont forget . How about showing up at the REZ to voice our objection to the unjust that has been going on to long. let us set day and time. Can you imagine all of us their asking to talk to the inrollment committe and no one leaves till we get this figured out . we need to figure a time they wont know we are coming so every one will be their

Anonymous said...

Veterans also from the Hunters include Victor John Jeffredo-U.S Army Air Corps and Ernest Tavizon, who was listed on the list before but whose name was taken off of the list recently.

I guess the tribe remebered to take Mr. Tavizon's name off of the list as Mark Macarro used the tribal rangers to keep some of the Tavizons from building on some of their legally own property so the powers that be know the Tavizons have been disenrolled.

Anonymous said...

In DC, November 5th. You all should have sent a delegation to this function n made some news. It will help get your story some national coverage.

OPechanga said...

Hunter Veterans also include:

Frank Smith US Air Force
Gregory Poole US Navy
Thomas Cuevas US Army

'aamokat said...

And how about Lawrence Madariaga?

I seem to remember his name was on the list at the Pechanga Website.

Of course he was profiled on the KNBC "Without a Tribe" so not surprising if they took his name off of the list.

Allen L. Lee said...

I wonder how Rep.Salazar, author of the Stolen Valor Act and brother of Dept. of the Interior Secretary Ken Salazar, would feel if they knew dis-enrollments are causing honored veterans to be removed from tribal veteran honor rolls?

OPechanga said...

Here's Rep. Salazar's contact information:

Washington, DC
326 CannonHOB
Washington, DC 20515
202-226-9669 (fax)

Fax a letter and let's find out!

Allen L. Lee said...

I wonder how the descendants of the Code Talkers would feel if they learned their veteran ancestors were removed from a veterans list or the National Museum of the American Indian because they were dis-enrolled. ? Wonder how the hundreds of veterans who frequent the casino would feel about it. My letter is on it’s way
“Recognition by the U.S.
The "Honoring the Code Talkers Act," introduced by Senator Jeff Bingaman from New Mexico in April 2000, and signed into law December 21, 2000, called for the recognition of the Navajo code talkers. During a ceremony at the U.S. Capitol on July 26, 2001, the first 29 soldiers received the Congressional Gold Medal. The Congressional Silver Medal was presented to the remaining Navajos who later qualified to be code talkers. Senator Bingaman's legislation was one attempt to answer the question of how the United States should document and remember the Navajo code talkers.”


A proper tribute by the Navajo tribe

Allen L. Lee said...

Don't read this "Anonymous Weak Crybaby" it'll be too long for you.

Dear Rep. Kurt Schrader,
With a personal family history as a descendant of slaves of African descent held by members of the Choctaw Nation of Indians, and being closely involved in Indian educational opportunities when I was an employee for the University of California, Riverside, I have taken a serious position against what I consider the human rights violation of tribal members being removed from their tribes, a term commonly known as dis-enrollment. In the Northwest, The Snoqualmie tribe near Seattle, Washington , has been involved in such a case, which I have spoken out against. In Oklahoma, The Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma has dis-enrolled and refused to recognize tribal members with no known Indian ancestors and in Southern California, the Pechanga Indians have dis-enrolled hundreds of members, complete families, who they claim have ancestors who were not really Indians or whose ancestors were not part of their specific tribe. I take the position that any dis-enrollments or loss of tribal citizenship based on ethnic or racial heritage is a human rights violation, and Rep. Diane Watson has sponsored a bill two years in a row to sever relations with the Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma until the Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma reverses it actions against it's Black tribal members, but I write this letter not because of the Cherokee nation of Oklahoma debate but the dis-enrolled Pechanga veterans. In the process of purging undesirable family members from the Pechanga tribe through dis-enrollment, the tribe had a list of honored veterans which they also edited to remove the elders and ancestors of said families from their list of honored veterans.
I would like to know if you would both opine on this position and forward this concern to Rep. Salazar, D. Colorado, who authored the Stolen Valor Act in 2005. Many of us who have been struggling against dis-enrollments based on eugenics take the stand that just because a tribe, state, or nation has the sovereign right to make decisions doesn't mean they should be supported for making bad decisions. The removal of honored veterans names from the tribal honor rolls is a new low in the the dis-enrollment struggle. It would be the same as if by some event a descendant of a Navajo Code Talker was determined not to be a by-blood Navajo and the National Museum of the American Indian removed the recognition of that Code Talker ancestor from their museum. The Pechanga roll purging certainly wasn't illegal or a violation of the Stolen Valor Act, but at least it was dishonorable to the veterans and should be addressed as a further ill of the mass dis-enrollments in Indian Country and the dangers of eugenic nationalism. Much of this mandatory Indian Blood nationalism finds its roots not in native tribes, but U.S. race laws. The U.S. must take notice and address this issue as the human rights violation that it is. Thanks for your attention, Allen L. Lee

'aamokat said...

Mr. Lee, while I welcome your efforts to draw attention to our plight at least part of your statment is not factual about the disenrolled from Pechanga.

You stated: "in Southern California, the Pechanga Indians have dis-enrolled hundreds of members, complete families, who they claim have ancestors who were not really Indians or whose ancestors were not part of their specific tribe."

Pechanga never claimed the disenrolled are not Indians for example on page 24 of the Hunter family Record of Decision the Band's enrollment committee acknowledged the following:

"A trust patent was issued to Paulina Hunter on August 31, 1897. Doc. No. 33. The patent listed Paulina Hunter as an Indian of the Temecula tribe or band."

Also, on page 23 of the Hunter ROD the enrollment committee states and acknowledges this historical fact, "On June 6, 1868 Thomas G. Hunter married Paulina Walla, a California Indian."

Finally, on page 27 of the Hunter ROD, under item 11, states: "Nothing in the Committee's findings shall be construed or interpreted that the committee is making a determination of the "Indian" or "Native American" status of Paulina Hunter or her descendants."

As I have stated numerous times before, the Band's enrollment commitee just claimed (wrongly I believe) that we aren't Pechhanga Indians.

The same kind of statements were made in the ROD of the disenrolled members from the Manuela Miranda desecendants who the Band's enrollment committee also acknowledged are Temecula and California Indians.

So while, if the tribe had claimed some of the disenrolled weren't even Indians, it would back up your claim that it is wrong to kick people out because of the Eugenics factor, at Pechanga at least this wasn't part of our disenrollment cases.

It is some of the clowns who come here and try to further discredit us the disenrolled that claim some of us aren't even descendants of Indians without any basis of truth to back up their statements.

But as I have stated several times, the treaties of 1866 should guarentee the various Freedmen descendants tribal membership in their tribes regardless of their blood status so the Pechanga situation is different.

'aamokat said...

Mr. Lee, a couple of other things:

You stated, "The Pechanga roll purging certainly wasn't illegal or a violation of the Stolen Valor Act."

Yes, the purges are not a violation of the Stolen Valor Act, but they were still illegal under Pechanga tribal law and I believe it can be proven, the purges of membership were also violations of the Indian Civil Rights act because of lack of due process.

And in all fairness to our moratorium friends from Pechanga, the tribe is continuing to violate the Band's constitution and bylaws under Article 11 that states, "the Band's enrollment committee is to open the enrollment the first month of each year," by keeping them out of the tribe.

Allen L. Lee said...

Didn't we just read a poster call Pauline Hunter a White woman from Ohio? I think that was an inference that she was not an "Indian" You probably missed the other part of the sentence which reads: "who they claim have ...ancestors were not part of their specific tribe." Your response to that statement was:
"As I have stated numerous times before, the Band's enrollment commitee just claimed (wrongly I believe) that we aren't Pechhanga Indians."
The statement was absolutely factual and complete if you read the entire statement.
The letter refers to U.S, laws, not, Pechanga laws. Since the letter was sent to a U.S, official, and not a Pechanga official regarding Pechanga laws, I'm missing your point.
Because you can prove you are an "Indian" and your ancestor was a recognized tribal member didn't stop tribal members from denying your truth, and that is what the complaint is about, not whether you have stated the truth, but that certain tribal authorities have refuted it without basis and furthermore a tribal member should not have to be put to such a challenge in order to retain their membership.
Tribal law is not a Federal law. We are talking apples and oranges. Let's keep the two legal jurisdictions in context.
If you choose to write a letter advising members of Congress that the tribal authorities are violating tribal law, that would be your perogative,and I would support that, but that wasn't the topic, the topic was veterans being removed from tribal honor rolls as a result of dis-enrollment. Tribal veterans and U.S. veterans should take a closer look at this. What's does an honored tribal veteran have to look forward to if the veterans grandchild drops below the tribal blood quantum and gets dis-enrolled.
Removal of the veterans name from the honor roll because the grandchild gets dis-enrolled?

'aamokat said...

Mr. Lee, I was saying that the tribal officials, the people who made the decisions to disenroll people from the Pechanga, did claim that we aren't from this specific tribe so that part of your statement is factual.

But, the tribal officials never claimed that any of the disenrolled are not Indians.

For example, it was some non officials who had nothing to do with the case, troublemakers, who tried to claim that the Hunters don't even have Native American ancestry.

So all sides at Pechanga officially agree that I have Native American ancestry but some, wrongly I believe, say that I don't have Pechanga ancestry.

Actually it was Paulina Hunter who died in 1899 who was disenrolled over 100 years after her lifetime so all of her descendants are now kicked out of the tribe.

Pechanga goes by lineal descent but, for example, if a descendant was disenrolled from another tribe for being under the blood quantum, why would that descendant's grandparent be taken off of a list of that tribe's veteran's list?

After all, the grandparent wouldn't be the one who was disenrolled.

Allen L. Lee said...

Thanks 'Aamokar for the response,
I guess I need to re-iterate my position from time to time that other than of personal interest and curiosity I don't really care how much someone is an Indian. I certainly don't find it important when determining someones human or civil rights within a sovereign political body such as a tribe.
In other words, If Paulina Hunter was a White woman from Ohio who passed in 1899 and was accepted by Pechanga people as one of the members/citizens of the Pechanga tribe, I would support her right to remain recognized and the rights of her descendants to remain recognized as Pechanga tribal citizens.
I don't care whether someone is judged 2/5 Morongo or 5/16 Soboba, or 11/18 Pechanga, in fact I find it abhorrant for someone to be put through such a test. What is important is whether that person has been recognized by the tribe as one of their own. Once that is done, you need to have a better reason to remove their right to belong than blood math.
I find it of personal interest how Barack Obama came about his Black-ness, but if his Black-ness, or White-ness, or Zebra-ness ever becomes a requirement to hold his office or retain his citizenship it will be time for me to become a dissident and seek outside intervention. The "Birthers" as they are called don't make an issue about what race Obama is, but whther he is an American citizen. They are wrong by the way.
It's hypocrital for the U.S. to forbid such requirements in their own laws and foment race requirements among indigenous sovereigns because they don't want to pay up for the crimes they committed against indigenous people.
I won't support the U.S.'s fomentation of it within the tribes and I won't support any tribal member that does it, though I understand that some believe that it is a form of cultural preservation. Cultural preservation can be preserved without racist cullings of recognized tribal members.

Anonymous said...

Hey Mr Lee, enough with the weakcry baby crap! Why dont you bore someother site with your long boring junk! go get a job or something, you know nothing about the moratorium people!

'aamokat said...

Mr. Lee, the point is Paulina Hunter was not a white woman from Ohio. She was an Native American woman from California and, as I said, all sides agree on this fact but I understand your reasoning.

The Ohio connection was not considered even close to being credible and even the Pechanga enrollment committee, as biased against us as they were, dismissed it as being not relevant to the proceedings.

You might not understand why I insist to continue to refute that nonsense as regardless we would still be out of the tribe, but that particular bogus contention is especially slanderous of our family name.

Anonymous said...

MANOABOY says; Isnt this section about the moratorium people? Forget hunters you had your chance forget about it, your disenrolled live with it, you people lived the life of luxury ten years was it?

t'eetilawuncha! said...

We still live a life of luxury, and we are highly productive people. It has never been about the money, although it was nice. It's about preserving our culture, and are childrens heritage. Thanks for sharing your thoughts, even if i see them as shallow.

Allen L. Lee said...

To Anonymous Weak Crybaby again,
Though I know what it is like to be without a job and to be without in general, I have a job but it is not something I would use to gloat over people who are without. When I have the opportunity and ability to share my prosperity, that's what I do, when I have no prosperity, I can not share.
I do know that some moratorium people have very good credentials and grounds for enrollment in the tribe, though not the same rights as the dis-enrolled based on recent recognition of the tribal member, but because of your obvious character flaw of treachery, I wouldn't even stand in the same line with you at Starbucks.
I certainly would'nt consider an application for enrollment from someone with such a propensity for treachery in any tribe or naturalize them as a citizen in any Nation/State. Fortunately, you are already recognized as a U.S. citizen, so at least that can't be taken away from you.
Your allies can't march with you for fear of becoming victim of your "friendly fire." It would be safer for them if you as an individual were kept out of the formation.
If that was your idea of mass appearing at the Jan. enrollment, that was pretty good, but you'll just have to "suck up the gut" and try and demonstrate physically that the tribe is violating it's own laws to other tribal members.
It won't work if you start turning on anyone else that shows to support you in January or attacking tribal members who agree that the moratorium is illegal.
Either get a napkin and dry your eyes or get a backbrace.

OPechanga said...

Dear Weak Crybaby:

You say:
Hey Mr Lee, enough with the weakcry baby crap! Why dont you bore someother site with your long boring junk! go get a job or something, you know nothing about the moratorium people!

Mr. Lee brings with him many valid points that apply to MANY tribes, not just Pechanga. So far, you have DONE NOTHING to enlighten us about the moratorium people.

AGAIN, 55 comments into this post, the moratorium people continue to be silent. Take your opportunities when given to you.

What do you have of value to say?

Anonymous said...

Manoaboy, if you are an enrolled tribal member, then why don't you helpe your relatives the Tosabols who are stuck in the moratorium?

If you are a member, then you are probably scared to help your own blood.

You should follow the example of some of the Manoas who stuck their necks out to support the Hunters, true Pechanga people, by helping the Tosabols and all moratorium people to get enrolled.

flowergirl said...

Hi there, well, I feel bad for all you disenrolled people as well as those in moratorium. But me, who is new to this, can't even get enrolled and stuck in moratorium and I want to know why????

Anonymous said...

One way to end this illeagal moratorium, is to talk to realatives that are in the tribe now and they can convince others in the tribe to vote against the moratorium! Come on tribal people,isnt twelve years of moratorium enough? You must be getting tired of collecting per caps by now,! Or is it greed!You do know god is watching.

Anonymous said...

Have the Tosabols worked on strengthening their relaitons with their Manoa cousins?

Why should the Tosabols EXPECT their Manoa family to help if they don't talk to them?

Anonymous said...

Where do you get your info. from? Are you a manoa or tosabol? If not get your comments straight!

OPechanga said...

For an anonymous person (1:16) you are very demanding.

Why don't YOU straighten out the facts. WHO are the Tosabols related to?

This post has been available for TWO weeks now. Plenty of time for you to get the story out......

'aamokat said...

Mr. Lee, one last thing about whether or not some of the Indians disenrolled from Pechanga are even Indians, when I quoted the Records of Decision from the enrollment committee verifying that even the enrollment committee acknowledges that the disenrolled are Indians, I was referring to the documents that informed hundreds of long time tribal members in standing that they were being kicked out of the tribe.

Allen L. Lee said...

I'm paying attention 'Aamokat,

All I'm saying is that I'm more concerned with " hundreds of long time tribal members in standing that they were being kicked out of the tribe." than I am concerned with who was/is or was/is not an Indian.

Allen L. Lee said...

I've been wanting to pose this consideration for some time, and i think this is the thread to do it.
To any moratorium person; Suppose the moratorium people were to collectively agree to submit to the tribe a proposal to forego any per-cap payments for a set number of years, to be agreed upon by tribal members and enrollees as a condition for lifting the moratorium?
The goal is to re-unite families, re-claim heritage, teach and show the young from whence their ancestors came. Tear down the Berlin Wall or the Mason-Dixon line or whatever eupemism you choose in Indian country that separates family members from each other.If the Indain Country Berlin Wall is per-caps, and is the the only thing standing in the way of ending the moratorium, then remove them as an obstacle.
Enrollees would still face the same qualification standards to be accepted as tribal members, but the enrollment process would be active again.
An open question to any moratorium person reading this thread, but I am curious, Sanjuanflorist, what would you say?

'aamokat said...

But the moratorium people have done nothing wrong while the tribe, by not abiding by the tribal constitution which says open enrollment is the the first month of each year, is in the wrong.

So no, they should be enrolled with all of the privileges that any other member enjoys.

Greed is our "Berlin Wall." Greed on the part of people who have kicked tribal members out without due process of law and who have kept others out of the tribe who rightfully belong and it is not greedy of moratorium people to receive what is rightfully theirs.

Allen L. Lee said...

Thanks "Aamokat,
Hoping to get more answers!

Anonymous said...

Im with you all the way Aamokat!

Anonymous said...

Come on people I have seen nobody throw blows in court to fight (in the moratorium)except joe liska by the way whats he up to?

I see why he fights alone there is nobody else interested in fighting.

temecula citizen

Anonymous said...

temecula citizen I heard he just walked away from all of it and his pechanga family I can,t say I blame him,who needs that negitive crap in life.

Goat salesman

Anonymous said...

I'm in the moratorium and I personally would like to be a member of the tribe regardless of the money. I do agree with aamokat that there is no reason I should not receive the same benefits, but if that is what it takes to become a member I would be willing to not share in the per-cap for a reasonable period of time.

Anonymous said...

If you can trace your ancestry to the familys who were given land on the reservation, they you DESERVE to be in the tribe with ALL benefits of a tribal member.
There is NO REASON to get less than any others. You should have your right to vote and buy available land.
Try getting more vocal so more people will care.

flowergirl said...

I might be rewriting this so I apologize in advance. Yes, I am definately willing to forgo the monies in exchange to be recognized. I feel that it is more important to have my ancestor recognized for being a strong self-sufficient indian women and I am very sorry that I did not know previously how to get enrolled or I would have done so. I have always known that our family was Pechanga but that was as far as it ever went in knowledge. What is needed to prove yourself with the EC? When last I spok with them, they pissed me off. I told them their ancestors would be ashamed because what they are doing to people is the same as what the "white" men did to them, and their ancestor was the honorable party in this, not them.

flowergirl said...

I keep reading through your discussions to keep sending in your enrollment applications? Does anyone have one they will send me? The EC will not, they are not in, they only enroll minors,.......

Anonymous said...

What if rather than sending in another application, that is if you already know the enrollment has received your application, we all don't sent one. The reason they give for not reviewing the moratorium is that they need to get caught up with the applications they have; so on that note if they only receive like 10 new applications they don't already have then they can't use the excuse that they have received hundreds of applications they have to process. I would assume that almost all tribal members would be frustrated with the members of the enrollment committee if they receive very few applications because it would then prove that they are not doing any work. You have to remember the enrollment committee members are paid by the tribe for their services. Personally I’d be mad if I was paying someone and they weren’t doing any work, that’s money straight out of the tribal members pockets.

flowergirl said...

Who am I:

Pechanga/temecula indian
family: Miquella Guavish ie...(Macala, Michella, Muchella)
Land allotment #33
Matilda Guavish Place Helm last to live on the Rez.
Maquella and Matilda buried on the Reservation. My grandparents.
News to me!! Maquella lived with paulina Hunter and Dolores Pasel in the late 1890's. WHY?
Do not know Maquella's parents names but would love too.
1928 enrollment application lists Pechanga as tribe.

Those are my stats as I have them. Can anyone fill in the blanks and are we related??

t'eetilawuncha! said...

sanjuanflorist said...

Yes we are related, as tribes we are a combination of triblets and clans. Our ancestors knew this, and I believe this is were our troubles begin. There are factions within our triblets and clans who are blinded by greed, either money, land, power or a combination of all.

Welcome Sanjuanflorist, we are glad your here.

'aamokat said...

SanJuanflorist, If Micheala Quilich (Quileg) is the same person, then yes we are related because Micheala was Paulina's half sister.

Paulina used to spend some time in Los Angeles and she would often take the stage coach from Pechanga to L.A. and back again.

She would often stay in the household of Salvador (Micheala's husband) and Micheala at Pechanga during the late 1890s.

As far as Paulina and Micheala having a permanent residence together, that I don't know as Paulina had her own residence on the reservation.

But it could also be possible our ancestors were related in some other way.

flowergirl said...

Thank you. Yes I agree that greed has played a role in the way that the tribe is treating certain individuals. I also figure that if the tribe was to enroll everyone in the moratorium and the few of us who haven't gotten the chance to enroll that would cut their paycheck by less than half. Instead of it being 30,000 a month it would be 15,000. Geez, no one could live on that!! Is there an area where people have posted their family trees??

flowergirl said...

Well aamokat I am unsure whether we are related or not. My g-g- grandmother was Maquella Guavish. She was married to a fat white dude :) named John Place. After he died she bought a piece of property on the Polomar mountain, but I lost her from there. In the last census of 1899 it has her living with polina and Dolores on the Pechanga Reservation. I was told she had kids other than William Kolb, who she adopted and Matilda (Mary Ann) whom was her biological child. Mary Ann built a house and well on the land given her on the reservation but when the well dried up she left. All help or knowledge is greatly appreciated. Who were Paulina's parents??

Allen L. Lee said...

Just wanted to say thanks to those who offered an opinion about my per-cap query.
I don't believe it appropriate to comment on an opinion unless a comment is requested. I aslo try to avoid asking for an opinion and then ambushing the contributor because it may be an opinion I disagree with. My request was more for gaining knowledge, listening and learning, rather than engaging in a discussion. So though I haven't said anything in response doesn't mean I don't appreciate the contribution of information.
Thanks again.

Anonymous said...

New question for everyone

How many people here are in the moratorium?

How many people are refused enrollment applications so have no enrollment forms?

Well, I was thinking that open enrollment is the month of January and has anyone considered that we unite as a whole? Can we get the what, 600 or so people together and knock on the EC's door? Power is in numbers and hey it could be fun, disruptive, but fun. We could maybe help everyone get their paperwork in order and all meet. I know I may sound naive, but something has to be done. One or Two people need help and support. And, I agree, if the government gave us land, our ancestors lived as Pechanga, who are they to say we have to wait. 2015, really. It is unreasonable and unfair. This was our family and they are keeping the doors locked, why???? 600 people at their door should bring a whole lot of attention and embarrassment to the EC as it should. What do you think?? Am I out of my mind?? maybe

Allen L. Lee said...

The logistics would be difficult but I think it could be done. It would "REQUIRE" tribe members who sympathize with you to meet you at the line, lock hands with you and not let go for any reason. I fairly certain there are people inside the tribe that would do it, but you need to co-ordinate it with them.
I could see a Snoqualmie or Seneca style"shut down the machine" event and the BIA would have to recognize it as a politically legitimate event.

Allen L. Lee said...

One little addition, if "Aamokat's assertion that the moratorium is illegal, not based on federal, state, or county law, etc., but illegal based on tribal law, is correct, then I see no need to use January as anything other than a symbolic benchmark. Technically your twelve years past January and the actions timing would be appropriate at any time.

'aamokat said...

Mr. Lee, but the thing is the Band's constitution and bylaws says that open enrollment is the first month of each year so if people showed up to enroll it would have to be in January as the twelve year moratorium should be ruled unconstitutional.

The people stuck in the moratorium would be going by the Band's constitution and not by some bogus law.

So yes although the action's timing would be appropriate at any time as the moratorium should be lifted, it would be more appropriate in January.

flowergirl said...

Yes I agree that the timing of "January" is more for symbolic reasons that definately would pose the most impact. I asked the question of the Moratorium when I spoke with them and they said it was due to the increase in membership applications. Although if that was the case, I would think they would have sent me an application. Whether they looked at it or not. I live in Washington state and tribal anything is HUGE. We have a constant barage of angry people due to fishing rights. When I stated that all paperwork needs to be dealt with, I mean ALL paperwork, tribal laws and everything. It is sad to me that my grandparents left the reservation, but if this was how it was within the tribal family, I would have too! The BIA is trying to stay out of it. When I spoke with John at the Cultural Dept of the tribe, he was angry that my Degree of indian paperwork from the BIA listed me as Pechanga. He stated that they are not allowed to do that anymore. It seems to me that Pechanga has gotten a bit big for their britches.
I found out recently that my aunt who passed away a few years ago was trying to do something within the tribe but what?? Is there a list of everyone on the Base Roll that we can look at?

Anonymous said...

the big reason for the moratorium, and why its going on so long, is nothing but greed and nothing else!

flowergirl said...

I agree that Greed is the major factor in all this, even the BIA hinted at it. I do know, that some people trying to enroll is because they think of the paycheck. I also believe that being a part of your heritage has more more to do than money. If the tribe opened enrollment, enrolled members would gain alot. They would receive their medical, college help,their heritage, their friends and family and they would also be able to apply for jobs on ANY reservation, casino, etc and be given first consideration. People have a lot to gain other than financially by being acknowledged as an enrolled member. The tribal council should NOT be able to take everything away from us.

Anonymous said...

In my opinion the only way that anyone will get enrolled is if those of us that have family members in the tribe focus on talking to them about the moratorium. We need to encourage them to talk with other families in the tribe to discuss what can be done. It is a fact that either every or close to every family that is enrolled has a few family members that didn’t get enrolled for any number of reasons.

Allen L. Lee said...

True "Aamokat,
But once the illegal government action has occurred, everything that the government has done is illegal, null and void. The constitution was violated in January, twelve years ago. the violation wasn't corrected in February twelve years and they then became constitutional until the following January. Also I have seen no constitutional timeframe for when a costitutional violation must be corrected based on Pechanga law.
Of course you could consider each January a separate "count" violation of the constitution equalling twelve times. That may have some political and legal sway
to your action, but from where I stand, the current Pechanga government, based on your accusations of unconstitutional rule, is an illegal government, and has been for at least twelve years, so that the multiple count violation is un-nessecary.
It means that the new base roll as well is illegal.

Anonymous said...

Does anyone here have an enrollment application they could send to me so I can get my ducks in a row and see what happens when I send it in?
from: sanjuanflorist

Allen L. Lee said...

In short "Aamokat
Someone who has never enrolled, January 2010
Someone whose enrollment package is on the desk from past January's
under an illegal moratorium,
For them the illegal act is occurring now, they don't have to wait until next January to address an illegal act.

Anonymous said...

from: sanjuanflorist
is it true that the tribe can keep us out of the cemetary where our family is buried?

'aamokat said...

SanJuanflorist said, "When I spoke with John at the Cultural Dept of the tribe, he was angry that my Degree of indian paperwork from the BIA listed me as Pechanga. He stated that they are not allowed to do that anymore."

They aren't allowed to do that anymore? What?

Those CDIB are supposed to be historical documents but reportedly the BIA Riverside office has been changing some of them to San Luis Rey Mission or Temecula recently.

Sounds like another link to the corruption that has been ongoing for awhile now.

I guess they missed one that they didn't get to change Hold onto yours it is valuable!

I guess they didn't notice either that my grandmother's probate, which went through after we were disenrolled, lists her as a Mission Indian (Pechanga Band).

It is hard to change history when there are legitimate documents still floating around.

Anonymous said...

What other moratorium stories are there?

Are there only three people in moratorium?

Anonymous said...

I think alot of moratorium people are either waiting for some other moratorium people to do all the work, or they just gave up. Im so glad jennie and her evil mother are finally facing the truth! Get out liars! and your criminal sons!

Allen L. Lee said...

I'm not going to let this discussion rest easy.
Here's my question, and it should be considered serious:
What law abiding tribal member(s)
will accept sanjuanflorists enrollment application in January 2010?

Allen L. Lee said...

“The Pechanga Band derives its authority to govern from the General Membership."
The general membership can absolve itself of a faulty constitutional government or a governing body that fails to adhere to the constitution at any time.
So I ask again:
What law abiding tribal member(s)
will accept sanjuanflorists enrollment application in January 2010?

Allen L. Lee said...

Tribal constitutional government, no tribal court. What court system is used when a tribal constitutional government has no courts? The federal courts.
We know there were complaints about violating federal laws re., Pechanga, but what complaints were in federal courts re., violating Pechanga law based on the reality that Pechanga has no court system?
Twelve years without a tribal constitutional violation being brought before a court.

Allen L. Lee said...

Those with actual authority have the right to circumvent or relieve those who they charge with performing certain duties if they fail to perform those duties, or worse, corrupt the purpose of those duties.

flowergirl said...

Mr. Lee

You have very valid points that should leave alot of room for discussion. If the Moratorium is in violation of tribal law, How is it that they are allowed to continue with it and for sooo many years? Indian tribes in general would benefit by having numbers so it stands to reason that tribes not allowing membership do so out of greed and power. I am a firm believer that not all people can handle power so that is where a tribal court system would benefit the people by atleast allowing them to be heard. If it is true that Pechanga has no tribal court, the people and their lives solely rest on what 7 tribal councilmen to dictate the lives of so many. That is a mighty big sword.
Why are their soo little people standing up for themselves?

Anonymous said...

San Juan Florist asks some good questions.

Many of the Pechanga people, Hunters and Manuelas were SHEEP and let others do the work for them, content to "go along to get along". Not attending meetings to vote in their interest, or stand up for what is right.

No one knew how to stand up to the tribal council to make them do what the tribe required. Recall should have been in order.

People are just happy to continue to get their per capita checks and stick their heads in the sand. After all, if they aren't hurt, why take the chance of having the tribe act against you? After all, the tribal council has proven that they WOULD.

Your last question is the biggest and most important. WHY are so few standing up for themselves. I think the story of the Little Red Hen is in order... nobody wanted tohelp her plant weed sow reap.. but they sure all wanted some of her bread.

OP has asked for moratorium people to speak up her and what have we gotten from the Tosobals? NADA. They are weak and whiny and want others to do the heavy lifting.

'aamokat said...

It is not true that the Hunters did not go to meetings and vote on important issues.

A lot of us signed the petition that was supposed to outlaw disenrollment.

And we put one of our members on the PDC board, defeating Jenny (Masiel) Miranda in the process, and we put one of our relatives on the enrollment committee who ended up being one of the people who found corruption on the committee so we couldn't have done any of those things without going to meetings.

And we did those things with the help of the M. Mirandas and one of the reasons they came after us is 1.we were starting to win elections 2. our family members found corruption in the leadership.

That is why the CPP came after us.

White Buffalo said...

It is true what √°anokat said we were there you might remember me, In fact I remember the moratorium vote I voted against it but it still passed by a small margin. I remember when I first started going to meetings. There were not very many people present, but when others of my family started to go the voting blocs shifted. I can remember the grand potato used to speak on trivial crap for long periods. This then became a type of filibuster so that people could be called to the meeting to shore up voting numbers. It was an us against them ever since the elections in the old schoolhouse back in the late 80s. The main reason we were disenrolled is not because we are weak rather the opposite we are not as evil or corrupted enough to stoop to the level of those wicked family members that chose power and greed over tradition and family values. I remember opened arms in the 80s Indifference in the 90s and Hostility and Hatred in the 2000s We were there because we belong, Remember that that casino sits on our grandfathers land.

Guero Nunez aka White Buffalo

Anonymous said...

Sorry, As a Hunter descendant I was also there with my children who are still minors, so they would see the inner workings of the tribe. And Hunters have always been involved prior to the casino or any talk of the casino, me and all my cousins were enrolled in 1979 so that makes up a large block of those enrolled at that time. There was such intense hatred for our family you could feel it in the air.

So I was there as were many Hunters, some even flying in from out of state.

Anonymous said...

From sanjuanflorist

I did not want to start a who did what while enrolled but a mere question of what can we do NOW? I believe with 100% of my values, morals, etc that the Hunters deserve and are entitled to be enrolled. While being a paralegal I learned One major thing, IF YOU THINK YOU'RE MARRIED, ACT LIKE YOU'RE MARRIED, THEN YOU ARE MARRIED. Every court in the world believes that statement and would rule by it. January is a good time for a good old fashion pow wow! Anybody ready?? Kick out the council, gather your friends, family and whomever else and fight for our rights, beliefs and integrity. If we are deserving of enrollment, our family was given land, then what more can they want, I heard they are now asking for blood!! 2010 is a time for change, even Obama said that!!!!!!

Anonymous said...

from sanjuanflorist

So here is a question for all you ex-tribal members:

What is the base roll that the tribe wants to do??

Who are the beginning members that the tribe says are the originals??

What exactly does the tribe require to approve enrollment???

who has enrollment applications in duplicate???

Allen L. Lee said...

Good analogy about the "married" interpretation. If the dis-enrollments were unlawful based on Pechanga law, then the "dis-enrolled" are technically lawful Pechanga members, but they must assert this fact by their own sovereign actions.
If the moratorium is illegal then tribal members can accept applications and approve or disapprove them come January 2010, but a tribal member must accept them and assert it as a lawful act.
As I said earlier, if it is true that the government exists as an unlawful representation of it's members/citizens, them every official act they have taken at the time they became unlawful, is also unlawful, private contracts, state compacts, federal grants, etc. Not only does the unlawful tribal officials need to be put on notice, but all others that have engaged in agreements with them need to be notified that their parts in the agreements may also be unlawful.
In the meantime, those with the authority to engage in lawful tribal acts should do so with sovereign determination, not waiting for permission or approval from "officials" but acting on the rule of known tribal law, be it constitutional law or traditional.

On another note, each individual is accountable for their actions, I will never support the conviction of an entire clan because of the actions of individual clan members.
The Base Roll; from what I can tell it is an attempt to create a retro-active base roll established from the current recognized members.
In other words if one of the dis-enrolled's ancestors happens to show up on a historical document base roll the same as a current recognized member, they still can't qualify because they aren,t a current member.
Their is no historical foundation to create such a base roll that I have seen in the federal recognition guidelines. I could see where this base roll event could be challenged as failing the requirements for federal recognition
It's not much different in my mind than what the Pharaohs, Caesars, or, Conquistadors did when they tried to destroy the libraries and histories of the people they conquered.
I can see malice on several sides, it has to be tempered with fair rules.

'aamokat said...

Mr. Lee, your historical analogy is correct and I will had one more analogy that relates to disenrollment and the changing of citizen rolls and the changing of history.

In the 1930's Germany, which had fallen into the hands of the Nazi party, reclassified millions of long time citizens in good standing to non citizenship status.

The Hitler lead government in effect "disenrolled" the Jews who were then systematically annilated over time and it was done to correct what the Nazis considered errors in the citizenship lists.

The Nazis claimed that the Jews really were not Germans.

Sound familar?

Well I don't tend to claim that the disenrollments that are occuring all over Indian country, not just at Pechanga, are as bad and as dramatic compared to what happened to the Jews under Hitler's rule, but evil is evil no matter to what the degree.

The problem with disenrollment at Pechanga in particular regarding the elimanating of an entire clan if the tribe were to move against certain current members for crimes that individuals have committed or that were committed by the ancestor of the entire clan is that if disenrollment was now a part of tribal law, which it isn't, but if it was, then the entire lineal descent of the individual(s) would be removed as well.

It is in the Band's constitution that there has to be an unbroken line of lineal descent so that individual's line would be broken.

Anonymous said...

What does an unbroken line of lineal decent mean??

Anonymous said...

it means thieves use scheme of illegal moratorium to steal multi-millions and also' to break 'lineal descendent...A holes know that lineal descendancy continues on...just another scheme...illegal;

anything they come up with is illegal; therefore: NULL AND VOID FOR FRAUD

Anonymous said...

Maybe when JENNIE and here gang of evil. Are ousted the general population will vote to let us honest indians. the ones that are stuck on the moratorium be inrolled O by the way there are more then 3 of use online. some of us are waiting for the other EVIL NOBELONGS to be ousted and the true temecula indians to be INROLLED

'aamokat said...

SanJuanflorist, the base roll that has been in the constitution since it was created in 1978 was supposed to be from the first written open enrollment of 1979.

And those people on that roll were supposed to be directly from the original Temecula Pechanga people from the 1800's.

The way to show that you are one of those descendants was listed in a supplement page that was included with the first 1978 enrollment application.

The proof listed included being a direct lineal descendant of an original land allotment owner, a direct lineal descendant of a Temecula Indian, a legal deposition of a recognized tribal member, or a legal deposition from a member of your line of descent (assuming he or she was an enrolled member).

In 1996 the enrollment requirments for new adult enrollees were tightened to include the requirment of being a direct lineal descendant of an orginal Temecula Pechanga Indian whose ancestor(s) were at the reservation when it was created.

But the moratorium was passed that same year so in effect no new adult members were to be enrolled.

That is if that law is even legal, which I believe it isn't, as the constitution (unless it has been recently changed) says open enrollment is the first month of each year.

However recently in 2009 the tribe apparently voted to have a new base roll from the people currently enrolled who are, as with the 1979 base roll, supposed to be from the original Temecula Pechanga people from the 1800s.

But I have doubts about the legality of that new law as well as in 2005 the tribe had voted to outlaw disenrollment so we, the Hunters, should also be part of any new base roll as our disenrollment in 2006 was illegal.

And also the disenrollment of the Manuela Miranda descendants in 2004was illegal because blood relatives of theirs, from the Candalaria Nesecat Flores line, were cleared from disenrollment despite the fact that they also couldn't answer the overly restrictive 1996 requirments that enrollment committee held the M. Mirandas to.

And one more thing, reportedly new adult members were enrolled in 2000and 2007 despite the supposed moratorium.

Confusing? It seems so but the bottom line is tribal officials twist the laws to fit their agenda and at least for now we and you are left out in the cold at least until the corruption is rooted out.

flowergirl said...

wow, that was a mouthful. So the base roll comes from the 1979 rolls. Who has that list?? How many people are listed there?

Finding out your true tribe can be frustrating, sad, exciting and so much more I can hardly express.

I want to embrace my heritage, but I guess I am the only one. It is sad. Thanks for answering me and I guess I will never get an enrollment appplication.