Friday, July 31, 2009

Joe Liska vs PECHANGA Judge perturbed at Tribes Confusion

Joe Liska, son of deceased member of Pechanga Band of Luiseno Indians, Fred Magee has had another day in court. In an email, Joe details what went on in the case. For those native Americans that are being kept off their tribal rolls or who have been terminated, there's still a chance to show support.

Joe has been out front, mostly alone, taking on the Pechanga Tribe, who are standing by an unconstitutional moratorium on new members. Here's Joe's commentary and it looks like he left a few marks upon Pechanga's lawyers.


I WAS THERE ALONE WITH MY GIRLFRIEND AND THE TRIBE HAD THEIR ONE ATTORNEY (A TOTAL OF THREE PEOPLE IN FRONT OF A FEDERAL JUDGE)!!

THE COURT HAD FIVE PEOPLE LAW CLERKS ALL TAKING NOTES AND COURT TRANSCRIPTS

THE JUDGE TRASHED THE TRIBES ATTORNEY AND STATED THAT MR LISKA IS UNDER SEVERE DETENTION BY THE TRIBE AND I SPOKE OF PEOPLE IN THE MORITORIUM DISENROLLED AND OF THE FAKE FACTION BUTCH MURPHY

THE JUDGE AS IF I FILED A FRAUD REPORT WITH THE FBI SHE ASK WHEN AND WHERE?

I ARGUED THE JESSE SHORT CASE THAT IT WAS MY TRUST LAND AND MEMBER OR NOT THEY ARE MY TRUST PROCEEDS! OP: This will leave a mark and give the judge some precedent.

I STATED ITS NOT TRUE TRIBAL MEMBERS CAN BE SUED AFFECTIVE SEPT 8 2008 CHEROKEE FREEDMAN CASE IN THEIR OFFICAL CAPICITY ! OP: Thank you Chad Smith, for your criminal actions against the Freedmen

FIRST THE ATTORNEY STATED I COMMITTED NO CRIME, THEN WHEN THE JUDGE READ THE EXCLUSION LETTER BANISHMENT HE SAID I BROKE TRIBAL LAWS... .

I GOT UP FOR THE 4TH TIME AND STATED "YOU JUST SAID I COMMITTED NO CRIME NOW SHE READS LETTER I DID A CRIME YOU'RE
CONFUSING THE COURT

MY GIRLFRIEND SAID IT LOOKED LIKE I NEW MORE ABOUT INDIAN THEN THEM ,,,,,,,,THE JUDGE SAID SHE WOULD REVIEW THE JESSE SHORT CASE,,,,WHERE HE WAS A DECEDANT NOT ON TRIBAL ROLLS LIKE ME BUT WAS GIVEN TRUST PROCEEDS FROM HIS LAND,,,,,,,,,,,,

SHE WILL RULE ON PAPER IN A WEEK

OP: Congratulations Mr. Liska, for standing up for your rights and for the rights of others whose rights have been infringed upon.

40 comments:

'aamokat said...

Joe, I am sorry I didn't attend the hearing as I thought it was going to be just a ruling by the judge and that arguments would not be heard.

I am finishing up a computer class for summer school at a local community college and while I did have a lot of work to finish up for my class, and the summer sessions go fast, it is no excuse for not making the drive down to San Diego.

By the way, I also go by Orionthehunter, mostly at the pechanga.info site, which for some reason I can't get into to get my password as I forgot it so I can't log in there.

Are you aware that the General Membership of the tribe reportedly recently voted to not take in people who can prove that they had their membership applications in before the moratorium deadline but whoose applications were not processed by the enrollment committee?

It was someone who apparently is a tribal member who posted that information here on this site so I personally don't have proof being now a non member myself, but I believe it is true and if so, it would be a help to your case to show that the tribe is selective in how they enforce even a bogus law like the moratorium.

Because how can they say that people who beat the moratorium deadline in the first place cannot be tribal members?

Apparently the tribe just considered this at the last General Membership meeting.

cideways said...

I only recently heard of the Liska case and didn't know anything about the hearing. I am not in the moratorium, but i am all for backing the people in it. Pechanga needs to be fully exposed. Please keep us informed to hearings and developments in this case.

Anonymous said...

Thanks orignal pechanga and mr liska for standing up and leading where many have just sat on the side lines. Hope to hear good news later this week!

Anonymous said...

Thank You Joe For leading the way for all whom have been stripped of their Heritage ,land any sense of belonging the true desendents will finally have the a voice

'aamokat said...

So the Pechanga attorney first says Mr. Liska committed no crime but then turns around and says he did violate tribal law?

So the attorney says one thing one time and later says the exact opposite.

Sound familar?

It should sound familar.

1. In 1986 the tribe votes to take in the Murphy family after the enrollment committee had turned down their applications for enrollment.

So the general membership had the authority to overrule the enrollment committee regarding enrollment decisions.

2. But in 2006 the tribal council rules that the Hunter family are not included in the 2005 petition that ended disenrollment as a part of tribal law claiming the General Membership doesn't have the authority to overrule the enrollment committee.

3. In 2001 the tribe promises the United States Dept. of Interior in its land to trust application that no changes would be made to the Great Oak Ranch property if it is made part of the reservation, which is collaborated in testimony in 2002 by Chairman Mark Macarro to the United States Congressional resources committee.

4. But in 2007 the tribe tears up land on the Great Oak Ranch property and puts a golf course on the land. Tribal general council John Macarro says that once land is put into trust the tribe then can do whatever they want with the land.

5. In 1996 the tribe votes to institute a moratorium on new adult members but at least if people had their applications in before the deadline, they could become members. The moratorium by the way was only supposed to be for one year but has now lasted thirteen years.

6. Reportedly recently this year at a General Membership meeting the tribe voted to not process applications of adults who were found to have been submitted before the moratorium deadline.

So now the General Membership again has the authority to make enrollment decisions?

I thought that when the Hunters were disenrolled it was because the General Membership could not make enrollment decisions.

But as I said, in 1986 the General Membership did make an enrollment decision to take in the Murphys.

Folks, that is how Pechanga does everything, THEY SAY OR DO SOMETHING ONE TIME BUT THEN THEY LATER SAY OR DO SOMETHING DIFFERENT, AND OFTEN THE OPPOSITE OF WHAT THEY SAID OR DID BEFORE, ANOTHER TIME.

Anonymous said...

Why do people spin off mr liska,s case to bring their issue up front?

I must ask mr liska himself why nobody showed up at his hearing?

Something is wrong here and we need some answers?

I must ask why people talk under screen names and not tell your real name?

I think maybe people are afraid what do the rest of the people that view this site think?

Public viewer

Allen L. Lee said...

To anonymous,
My name is Allen L. Lee,
Joe Liska's case is directly associated with the premise of blood descendancy and rights of citizenship. It is more than just a spin-off when others who are also directly connected with an issue of Blood descendancy and loss of citizenship refer to his case.
Joe Liska's case has an added concern of Blood descendancy and adoption. Most countries give children of dual nationalities, ,and this in effect is what every Indian tribe citizen is, a dual nation of their Indian Nation and a citizen of the U.S., an opportumity to decide by their age of majority how they wish to retain their citizenship. This opportunty was not afforded to Joe Liska because he was not made aware that he was the biological descendant of someone from another "Nation"
The question to me is, Did his biological parents intend to extinguish any legal claims he may have had as a Pechanga citizen when they placed him for adoption with citizens of another "Nation?"
Apparently the biological father has children and relatives who are tribal members who I believe can answer that question.
If he is found to have lawfully inherited "trust" rights, either the tribe or the feds, or maybe both, are going to have to square up with him and his children
Every other law and movement by both tribes, the states, and the feds, seems to claim they want to reclaim children adopted away from the tribe without the tribes authority. What makes Pechanga so resistant to embracing Joe Liska?
That's a question I find a lot more important than why posters on this board use screen names.

Luiseno said...

An answer your your questions...

"I must ask why people talk under screen names and not tell your real name?"
Perhaps (as in my case) we have relatives still living on the reservation, who could, and most likely would suffer repercussions because of what I may write.

"I must ask mr liska himself why nobody showed up at his hearing? "

Again in my case, it is because I can no longer afford to live in a high cost area like Southern California anymore. I am forced to live in an area where my meager savings and low income can support me. It costs me over $1000 out of my pocket every time I travel to S. Ca. And I have to watch my expenditures much more closely than I used to.

'aamokat said...

We don't have to explain to anyone why we post under screen names, as anonymous, or anything else.

But the poster who is being critical of us for not posting our names posts here as anonymous.

So why doesn't he or she use his or her real name?

As far as using Mr. Liska's case to further our cause, I say why not?

It is called using precedent because and if Mr. Liska was unjustly detained and not given due process, than so were we.

As far as us not showing up at Mr. Liska's hearing, I have already explained that and I am not going to address this issue again.

Anonymous said...

How were you detained?

Your allowed to live or go on the reservation right?

Did the enrollment committee give you a chance to prove your family roots?

Did they have a hearing on this matter just asking?

Were you banished like mr liska?

Detention is a severe action against your rights.

These are the questions everyone should ask themselves.

I like what mr allen lee stated about adopted children and yes indians are trustee.s of the united states and their reservation is their trust land.

So back to what I am saying the court will listen to case by case situations this will not be a blanket ruling for people to just say they were treated like mr liska they will have to plead their case.

public viewer

'aamokat said...

Yes, we can live and go to our reservation land that is legally ours but no we were not given a chance to prove our family roots.

The tribe violated several tribal laws and we, like Mr. Liska, were not afforded due process of law.

Every piece of evidence that shows we are true Pechanga people was flatly ignored by the enrollment committee and the tribal council let biased people, whoose minds were already made up against our families and who we could show had a vendetta against our families, to rule on our disenrollment cases.

So why do we consider that the slim majority on the committee, all from the CPP faction of the tribe, were biased and unable to render a fair and impartial verdict, a violation of Article V of the Band's constitution forbidding malice or prejudice against individual tribal members?

Well people who turned in the so called evidence against us were family members of that slim majority on the enrollment committee who ruled against us(we lost by one vote).

Also, members of our now disenrolled families were on the enrollment committee prior to the challenge on our membership and our family members found evidence of wrongdoing, including not enrolling people who had their applications in before the deadline for the moratorium as well as evidence that adults were enrolled before the 2000 election during the moratorium.

Well our family members made allegations to the tribal council against that slim majority on the enrollment committee from the CPP faction and we asked during our disenrollment proceedings that those committee members be recused and not be allowed to rule on our cases.

Well, they did not step aside from ruling on our cases and predictively we were disenrolled.

One of the enrollment committee members was quoted as saying prior to our disenrollment; "it doesn't matter what you turn in, you are still being disenrolled."


I could also show you how much of a kangaroo court our disenrollment proceedings were but it is hard to list everything here in just one post.

My point is that we never really were given our day in court to defend ourselves and I consider that being forcibly detained.

And there are actually other things we have in common with Mr. Liska's case that I will not go into here.

'aamokat said...

Add on to my last post:

Here are some examples as to why our disenrollment proceedings were kangaroo courts.

1. We requested but were denied transcripts of any of the proceedings.

Which made it hard to to mount a defense and prove that the enrollment committee skipped several key steps of the disenrollment procedures.

2. We were denied legal representation at any of the hearings.

3. We actually got letters from the tribal council that said "writing implements of any kind will be permitted in the hearing room" during our appeal to the tribal council and we were not allowed to ask any questions.

So we not allowed to take notes at hearings!

3. The whole tribe voted to end disenrollment as a part of tribal law and to stop all disenrollments in July 2005 and the disenrollment procedures didn't even exist as a part of tribal law in March 2006 when my family was disenrolled anyway.

I could provide addtional examples that shows the gross unfairness of what was perpetrated against my family and I can show you clear legal evidence that proves we are true Pechanga people but I and others have done so in many other threads on this site so I will not do so here now.

I can also show that the only evidence presented against us was hearsay but we have also shown that here in other threads.

'aamokat said...

#3 above should read, "writing implements will not be allowed in the hearing room."

Anonymous said...

I think I see whats going on here,I mean really,its hard to make a stand when you live on the reservation.

I see at some point you people that live on the reservation will have to step foward if it means getting kicked off the rez(as yo call it).

The way I see it ,you will be banished like mr liska at some point if yo feel strongly enough about your cause!

Welcome to my world pay rent haha just kidding.

public viewer

Anonymous said...

sorry mr liska I to was given up for adoption as a baby yo I no where you are coming from!

closure right?

Anonymous said...

Sometimes the snow comes down in june,what your looking for is right in front of you!


public viewer

Anonymous said...

Don,t try to understand it ,walk away from it or your family,it will cause you to much heart ache!

PV

Anonymous said...

The Public Viewer is probably someone trying to mess with us and divide us against each other and he or she is likely not interested in truth.

He or she is just interested in causing discord among those of us who have been wronged by the tribe.

I would not surprise me if he or she is a tribal member who doesn't care one bit about us at all.

Anonymous said...

case dismissed (not because of jurisdiction)complaint to vague for trial.

Anonymous said...

Case not ruled detention under 1303of title 25.

Anonymous said...

THE BIG NEWS HERE IS THE JUDGE REFUSED TO DISMISS THIS CASE BECAUSE IT LACKED SUBJECT MATTER JURISDICTION,,,,,BECAUSE I FAILED TO STATE A CLAIM IN THE BODY OF MY COMPLAINT THE CASE WAS DISMISSED,,,,,,,,THE COURT RULES THEY HAVE JURISDICTION HEAR OTHER ISSUES IN MY COMPLAINT NOT THE DETENTION,,,,,,,,,,RIGHT FRANKY GOOD JOB SEE YOU SOON AGAIN IN COURT(FRANK IS THE TRIBES ATTTORNEY)

HEY FRANK I CAN HOLD MY OWN IN COURT DONT YOU THINK?

GET A NEW TIE FRANK NEXT TIME FOR THE HEARING,,,,,,

PONY,,,,

Anonymous said...

NEXT HEARING IF YOU PEOPLE DO NOT SHOW UP ,,,,,YOU ARE NOT PECHANGA INDIAN,,,,,,,,YOU ARE WEAK AND I DO NOT WANT TO HEAR YOUR STORYS FOR NOT SHOWING UP,,,,,,GO BUILD AN ANT FARM,,,,,,,,,


PONY,,,,,,,,,

Anonymous said...

P.S THIS MESSAGE IS FOR MY SISTERS I WILL ALWAYS LOVE YOU,I HOPE YOU UNDERSTAND IT IS OUR FATHERS WILL THAT I RETURN AND DEFEND MYSELF.

BY THE WAY I AM NOW DIVORCED AND HAVE MOVED ON WITH MY LIFE.


PONY,,,,

t'eetilawuncha! said...

No Pechanga Indians showed up from either side. Why, Pony? Could it be, you have seperated yourself from the entire tribe? Every action has an equal and opposite reaction. Unfortunately you continue to seperate youself.

Anonymous said...

WHO,S FIGHTING IN COURT,ASK YOURSELF,WHOS BLAZING A TRAIL IN COURT FOR ALL INDIANS IN THE COUNTRY TO FOLLOW ,,,,,THEN ASK ME YOUR QUESTION AGAIN,,,,,,,OH YES I WAS SENT HERE TO BLAZE A TRAIL IF YOU DON,T WANT TO TAKE THE TRAIL THATS UP TO YOU,,,,,,,ALOT OF YOU FILED YOUR LAW SUITS AND DID NOT ASK ME TO BE PART OF IT,,,,ITS YOU THAT WENT YOUR OWN WAY,,,,


PONY,,,,,

Anonymous said...

WHOS ON THIS WEB SITE SHARING INFO WITH OTHERS ME RIGHT???????????

YOU CAN READ IT IN THE PAPER FOR NOW ON OK!


LATER,,,,,,

Anonymous said...

I told you my friend it will cause you to much heart ache ,go your own way they do not see the visions you see!


pv

Anonymous said...

Your skills are getting better in court pony keep it up!


Law student and clerk

'aamokat said...

Pony, point taken that you are upset that no one showed up for your court case.

But the bottom line is that tribes all of the time try to claim adopted blood children and bring them into their tribes.

Well Pony is blood of the tribe who was an adult when he found out his biological father was Pechanga and he tried to join his people but was turned away because of the moratorium on adult members.

But the moratorium, as we have stated many times before, should have been ruled uncontitutional as the Band's constitution clearly says that open enrollment is every January.

The tribe should do the right thing and bring their son home but they seem, when it comes to doing the right thing, to never do so and they side with keeping people out of the tribe.

This can be seen by the recent tribal vote where reportedly the membership voted to instruct the enrollment committee to not process applications for adults that had been submitted before the deadline for the moratorium but who still are not enrolled.

As far as the CPP's position on adoptions, it appears it is fine for people who are not blood of the tribe to be members but their position on people who have the blood of the tribe has been that they should take the descent of their adopted non-Pechanga famlies and be kept out of the tribe.

By the way, we Hunters were against this and we have always supported the blood of the tribe to be members.

So Pony if you think the CPP's positions have any credibility, then consider they have tried to keep you out of the tribe in more ways than the fact that you are stuck in the moratorium.

O Pechanga said...

Joe Liska has worked hard to get HIS case heard.

I'd agree with some that there may have been better ways to communicate effectively, such as some of his YOUTUBE videos that are no longer available.

I also agree with his "missed opportunities" point. All of us who are trying to right a wrong should be working together, to increase our volume.

Some of us worked hard at the beginning, to keep us from being disenrolled, fighting on and with the enrollment committee. Some fight alongside other tribal members from California that face the same dilemmas we do. Others still join in on sites like this one and pechanga.info.

But, sadly, still others have stayed on the sidelines and that weakens all of us. We don't need people standing out in the snow for hours, we need people passing this information forward.

Joe, I HOPE you keep coming here, sharing your words and your work. I HOPE you produce some more YOUTUBE videos we can display here. TELL YOUR FAMILY's story in three videos, under 3 minutes, I'll make sure they are posted if done right. The RIGHT people, including congress MUST know what people like your sisters have done to YOU and to HUNDREDS of us.

Anonymous said...

NEGATIVE GHOST RIDER DO YOUR FIGHTING IN COURT NOT ON YOUTUBE,FOR 350 DOLLARS YOU CAN FILE YOUR OWN LAW SUIT,,,,,


I CALL IT FRONT STREET JUSTICE,DO IT YOURSELF LAW SUIT,,,,I GOT BEFORE A FEDERAL JUDGE ON MY OWN,,,

PONY,,,,,(FRONT STREET JUSTICE)

I OWN THAT PHRASE,,,,,,,,,

Anonymous said...

NEGATIVE GHOST RIDER DO YOUR FIGHTING IN COURT NOT ON YOUTUBE,FOR 350 DOLLARS YOU CAN FILE YOUR OWN LAW SUIT,,,,,


I CALL IT FRONT STREET JUSTICE,DO IT YOURSELF LAW SUIT,,,,I GOT BEFORE A FEDERAL JUDGE ON MY OWN,,,

PONY,,,,,(FRONT STREET JUSTICE)

I OWN THAT PHRASE,,,,,,,,,

Anonymous said...

BY THE WAY MY NEW LAW SUIT WILL BE READY IN TWO WEEKS,,,,WHAT ABOUT YOU?


FRONT STREET JUSTICE,,,,,,,,,,,,


DIN'E (THE PEOPLE)NAVAJO

Anonymous said...

FORGIVE ME GRANDFATHER ,THIS WILL BE MY LAST WRIT OF HABEAS CORPUS,

WHAT I HAVE SEEN DOES REALLY QUESTION MY FAITH IN THE US JUSTICE SYSTEM , OR REALLY QUESTION WHO I AM,

MY NEXT LAW SUIT WILL BE VERY UGLY AND I WILL STATE MANY CLAIMS ,AND PUT MANY ON FRONT STREET,

BUT THIS IS THE FIRST TIME I HAVE FALLEN ASLEEP WITHOUT NITE MARES, THE FIRST TIME I HAVE FOUND PEACE IN MY HEART!


PONY,,,,PLEASE DO NOT RESPOND TO THIS POST ,,,,,,,,,,

Anonymous said...

Mr. Liska's sisters should be ashamed for dishonoring their father.

If Bobbi Lamere could get her family members enrolled during the moratorium, why can't they?

Anonymous said...

Hopeless mistake,



pv

Anonymous said...

You find yourself alone in unchartered waters right?

Your not alone hes with you,

I heard your chasing his spirit thru the wind!

Is that why you live your life like you do?

just asking


pv

Anonymous said...

I knew your father he was 45 and I was 21 we drank at this bar in chula vista when I was younger.

Your alot like him,better and worse always chasing some crazy dream.

pv

Creeper said...

JOE
DONT TAKE THE WORDS OF P.V. SERIOUS
you are NOT chasing a crazy dream
you are only going after your heritage the same heritage of your sisters and all the others in the moratorium and the disenrolled,
you are doing it your own way,
more power to you.

Anonymous said...

I HAVE ONE LAST EDUCATIONAL VIDEO THAT I WILL POST ON YOUTUBE AND I HOPE YOU POST IT ON THIS SITE OP.